Tim,
    Perhaps this will help explain the use and misuse of "occult" in B of M.

from p.11 amazing honesty-
 "If we were to call our subject Perennial Philosophy, Gnosticism,
Neoplatonism, or Hermeticism, some of the contempt and fear prompted by the
label 'occult' might be allayed, for these terms isolate the occult from
ghosts, poltergeists, witches, vampires, werewolves, and the like."
    Then in order to understand the far-reaching range of the  "occult"
 from p.45
    "As with Nietzscheanism, the occult finds adherents across the whole
political spectrum, from conservative authoritarians to revolutionary
anarchists. A case in point is the admiration that Allen Ginsberg, a
left-wing Jewish poet, maintains for the right-wing and anti-Semitic Ezra
Pound. Despite these differences, they share a sedition theory of history
and culture, and a belief in the power of poetry to communicate revelations
of ultimately reality."
    And Bush must have sensed this too because on finding out that some of
the poets recently invited to the White House were intending to protest his
war has cancelled the scheduled seance. Laura says she doesn't want a
"cultural" event to turn into a "political" one. Pardon my wandering.
    Then for an utterly and fantastically strained association
 p.30
    "A two volume expansion of "The Golden Bough" was published in 1900,
and the great twelve-volume expansion appeared between 1911 and 1915. It
was this expanded version that was read by Eliot and his contemporaries. An
abridged edition appeared in 1922 - which coincidentally was also the year
of publication of "Ulysses" and "The Waste Land", and of Mussolini's march
on Rome which ushered in the "era fascista".
    Is there an "occult" connection between these events? Perhaps then we
should also note that only 7 years later Muss made a compact with the
Catholic Church which assured the latter that there would be no endeavor to
extinguish the power of the Vatican. North of there in Germany some 4 years
later in 1933 Hitler's Nazi party was put into power in the Reichstag upon
receiving the support of the Catholic Party certainly not because it was
set upon restoring Wotan. In fact in 1941 H. said "It seems to me that
nothing would be more foolish than to re-establish the worship of Wotan.
Our old mythology ceased to be viable when Christianity implanted itself."
    Christian apologists would have us think other sinister forces were at
work in order to disown the strange products from the underbelly of their
own ugly dualistic psychologies. Only people already mystified by their own
predilections could accept such scapegoat peddling, but certainly not those
who are truly familiar with the works of the credible and serious scholars
who have been thrown into the arena with the Blavatskys and Crowleys. Still
I wonder how Evola and Raglan were missed?

    "'Daphne with her thighs in bark
       Stretches toward me her leafy hands,'-
       Subjectively."

But never a vampire or a werewolf-

Charles

----------
>From: Richard Seddon <[log in to unmask]>
>To: [log in to unmask]
>Subject: Re: Cantgo ergo possum physic
>Date: Thu, Jan 30, 2003, 5:54 PM
>

> Tim
>
> No: Surette is not trying to say that Pound was a member of a secret society
> or that he participated in secret rituals.  Pound was closely associated
> with a lot of people who did.  It is the ideas and the thinking of the
> Occult that Pound was soaked in that Surette is concerned with.  Surette
> reads "The Cantos" as Pound's revelation of a secret history.
>
> A lazy guy should be able to read "Royalty and All That", chapter 47 of
> "Guide to Kulchur".  If you are really a couch potato pay particular
> attention to page 264.  This will give you a taste for Pound's belief in
> Secret history.
>
> Part of the problem I think is the emotional baggage we bring to the word,
> "occult".  As I said Surette spends the first 100 pages of his book
> reviewing the history and central ideas of Occultism.
>
> Dictionary definition for the lazy.
> 1. Beyond ordinary knowledge
> 2. secret; known only to the initiated.
> 3. dealing with the supernatural or magical; the occult sciences
>
> Where Pound is Occult is in his affinitinity for the first two.  Yeats
> managed all three.  Pound rejected magical but not the supernatural.
>
> Rick Seddon
> McIntosh, NM
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Tim Romano" <[log in to unmask]>
> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Thursday, January 30, 2003 3:26 PM
> Subject: Re: Cantgo ergo possum physic
>
>
>> Rick,
>> I don't know what you mean by "a belief in secret
> history/tradition/ritual"
>> -- a belief in the existence or in the efficacy thereof? Are you saying
>> that Leon Surette is saying that Pound participated in secret rituals
>> and/or was a member of some secret society?  Help a lazy guy and gimme a
>> succinct summary.
>> Tim
>>
>>
>> At 03:16 PM 1/30/03 -0700, Richard Seddon wrote:
>> >Tim:
>> >
>> >Your question cannot be answered without a clear understanding of what
> you
>> >mean by Occult and what Surette means.  Surette spends almost 100 pages
> of
>> >the book in a general academic discussion of the Occult.  If you believe
>> >that Occult is simply dancing around a fire in fancy robes while intoning
>> >mysterious formulas or conducting séances then Pound was not an Occultist
>> >though Yeats probably was.  If you think that the Occult is a belief in
>> >secret history/tradition/ritual then "The Birth of Modernism" will show
> that
>> >Pound was an Occultist.
>> >
>> >The purpose of "The Birth of Modernism" is to examine and discuss the
>> >evidence for Occult ideas and tendencies in the work of the Modernists.
>> >
>> >After stating that his book is not Post-Modernism or New Historical or a
>> >neo-Marxist analyses Surette says; Page 6: "The rationale of this study
> is
>> >much closer to the old method of the history of ideas.  My hope is to
>> >identify both the nature and the provenance of a set of ideas, attitudes,
>> >and concerns that are ubiquitous in modernism and are particularly strong
> in
>> >William Butler Yeats, in his protégé, Ezra Pound, and, to a much lesser
>> >extent, in Pound's sometime protégé, T.S. Eliot."
>> >
>> >I am not trying to avoid the direct intent of your question.  In pursuit
> of
>> >his aims Surette has an entire chapter on "The Cantos" and another
> chapter
>> >on Pound's editing of "The Waste Land".
>> >
>> >However, the only fair answer to your question is for you to examine the
>> >book yourself.  It is available in most academic libraries and a fairly
>> >inexpensive, about $20.00, paperback edition.  The book is extremely
> dense.
>> >It is not a particularly easy read though it will fascinate and is very
>> >intellectually rewarding.  I found myself only able to read 10 pages or
> so
>> >before having to shift subjects for awhile.  The mind needs time to
> process
>> >the mass of information that Surette provides.  Bring your pencil to your
>> >reading.  You will like some parts and not others.
>> >
>> >Rick Seddon
>> >McIntosh, NM
>> >
>> >
>> >----- Original Message -----
>> >From: "Tim Romano" <[log in to unmask]>
>> >To: <[log in to unmask]>
>> >Sent: Thursday, January 30, 2003 1:21 PM
>> >Subject: Re: Canto ergo possum physic
>> >
>> >
>> > > What works of Pound are cited in Birth of Modernism as evidence that
> he
>> >was
>> > > an "occultist"?
>> > >
>> > > Tim Romano
>> > >
>>