On Mon, 26 Jun 2000, En Lin Wei wrote:

> >Pawel wrote:
> >Wei, I can recommend you a book written by Hugh Kenner. Title is "The Pound
> >Era", there is above 600 pages and it is worth its price.
>
> I have already read that work.  Thank you for the recommendation, though.  I
> can recommend a few for you if you like.

My sincere apologies Wei. I should not to write like that. Anyway in Kenner's
book there are a very good analyses of of the sound- poetry (provencal & english
mostly) and I meant exactly this chapter.
In my opinion you can have really serious problems to pick up how melopoeia
works, because of cultural differences.
As we all know chinese written characters are based on "the paintings" (the
images) and every image has certain MEANING so that can be the basic point of
misunderstanding between us. Music sometimes is just music.
Another thing is that this kind of poetry is very uncommon today. I can find
nice music in Eaven Boland, Charels Olson poetry. In polish I prefer Roman
Honet - who is right now only 26 years old.


> Pawel:
> >Pound proposed many, many years ago something strongly different. He
> >rediscovered Provance, he discovered China & Orient for Europeans &
> >Americans.
> >Provance & China in his verses work together like a  sound & image in the
> >movies (kind of "movie poetry" isn't it ? ).
> >
> Wei:
> I have a little problem with people saying so-and-so "discovered" China, as
> if the people living there are non-existent (Columbus "discovered America,"
> Marco Polo "discovered "the Orient", and such statements seem a little bit
> condescending).  I know you did not intend it in a neo-colonialist sense;
> but the choice of words is important.

We did'nt have any colonies in our history.
But I can tell you what I meant by quoting Pound's "croissant's era" - it was
my joke. I am rather sure that this sort of intercultural communication we try
to realize right now, even on this list, on the beginning of the Era of Internet
is destined to fail.
Polish educational system practically does'nt see any other literature or
philosophy besides European. Norman Davies in his books strongly critisizes
Anglosaxon system of education - I remember still his words that even on
U.S. universities programs are constructed in such a way that students will
never hear about continental or even english language celtic writers (is that
true anyway ???)
Personally I am a big fan of Mircea Eliade's books. This Great Translator from
Romania has explained to me and to many, many other readers what the Indian
philosophy really means and what's are the real discoveries of such a
philosophers like Patanjali, Vatchaspati Misra or Viasa. Whats then ?
West of the former "iron courtain" he was never been understood correctly (if
ever). Attributes of the most old european cultures (like for example
french) are presently strongly unpleasant and by that word I mean mostly
ignorance, ignorance and once again ignorance of EVERYTHING ELSE BUT ME.
I can assure you that I respect chinese culture very, very much but I would like
to respect it much better if I would know the names of the best contemporary
living chinese writers. So if you can help me in that matter...

Pawel
>Peter Bi said
> >about year ago on this list that Pounds poetry is much more "chinese" than
> >contemporary Chinese Poetry.
> >
Wei:
> Some educated English speaking Chinese say things like this, and without any
> affront to Peter Bi, who I do not know well, I must comment.   Some English
> speaking French will say Swinburne is more "French" than Baudelaire; and
> many 19th century Americans said the Czech composer Dvorak's New World
> symphony was more American than any piece written by any US composer in the
> US.   I am not sure if any conclusion can be drawn from such statements.
>
> Look at how Pound tries to use historical material in the Cantos.   Pound,
> rather oddly, tries to write "Confucian poetry" finding inspiration in
> historical classics and the Analects.  I would submit that Pound's poetry
> is, in one very important sense, very un-Chinese, because there is really no
> such thing as "Confucian poetry", other than in the sense of political
> slogans and traditional moralisms (Great Chinese poetry is almost always
> Taoist or Buddhist, and must be, to avoid being anything other than
> government propaganda.)

You are for sure an expert in that area, so your conclusion seems to me highly
interesting. Pound in FORM - chinese and in the MEANING - un -chinese. Do I
understand correctly ?

Pawel:
>  It wouldn't be wrong for The Cantos if HE would put something about
> >Yashihoco no kami, Nukawa-hime or Susaribime no mikoto. (Eventually about
> >Angelus Silesius or Martin Opitz). But even in this final form it is
> >possible to
> >discuss The Cantos as an example of "cross-cultural book", certainly most
> >interesting for American and Chinese readers . . .
>
Wei:
> I concur.  In fact, it is the cross-cultural aspect of Pound's work that I
> find most interesting.  I have read a great deal of the Kojiki, and find it
> interesting from an anthropoligical, literary, and socio-political angle.
> Pound would have done well to use it.  The Kojiki could have helped him
> fortify the myth of Japanese superiority, and given him food for the
> championship of the Japanese conquest of China and the creation of the
> Greater Co-prosperity Sphere.  The point is that once you have established
> that Pound is one of the great English speaking poets of the twentieth
> century (or even the "greatest", if you prefer), you are still left with the
> task of interpreting his work.

Some questions Wei:

How many people on this list have heard about "Kojiki" - (that's what I mean
"croissant's era") ?
In the former soviet Georgia they have really excellent
poetry (as they say) but who on this planet knows georgian language but
Georgians ?
Davies put a statement that Tibetans never had a poet like Shakespeare but 2
days ago I've read a book that in 15 cent. there was one (I forget his last
name). What was his name ?
And finally : couple of years ago I've read excellent sentence in a newspaper.
Someone simply has put: "is it not suprising that the most of greatest writers
in the history of this planet comes from countries which were empires ? - the
question mark on the end. Really there was literature in Kartagina as well -
but who cares about that - should we all  know the Romans only ?

Wei:
>Certainly Pound composed beautiful passages
> of poetry; ...
 ...How do we interpret "economic poetry" in the
> light of commitments to Mussolini, Hitler, Imperial Rome, and Confucian
> authoritarianism which are INCORPORATED into the poetry?  What is Pound's
> religion, and how are his acts of spiritual communion embodied in the
> poetry?   Can  certain aspects of his personal religion be separated from
> his belief that the masses should participate in very hierarchical, socially
> oppressive types of religious organizations?   Of course these are only a
> few of the questions posed by his works.  Many other questions are possible,
> and many other issues need to be dealt with.   Simply saying the poetry is
> beautiful does not help us interpet it.  Calling it "the music of words"
> does not help us interpret it.  Who can say what music APART from words (a
> Beethoven Quartet, for instance) actually MEANS?  But Pound's poetry
> contains words, and these words MEAN something.   Please INTERPRET the
> poetry.

Pas. I am exhausted right now. For a week or two I will try to write something.
It is not easy.
Thank you.

Regards

Pawel
Wroclaw /Breslau 10.07.2000



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