Tim:
 
how did you get the conclusion "... especially from the Middle East and
Asia..." ? Can you post an example here ?
 
 
Peter Bi
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Tim Romano <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 1999 4:39 AM
Subject: Re: know thy kulture 101
 
 
> Sarab Nihal Singh,
> In a discussion that is already very difficult because the holocaust is
its
> backdrop, the way you have asked this question is perverse. But in case
your
> knowledge of English is not very good,  "What the fuck..." can be an
> insulting way of phrasing a question -- though, in a bar-room or
fraternity
> house, one might say "What the fuck is going on here, guys?" and the
> question would be taken to be friendly and jocular. Also, the use of all
> UPPER-CASE LETTERS is usually understood to be the written equivalent of
> SHOUTING, though I notice that many non-English speakers, especially from
> the Middle East and Asia, often use upper-case and do not intend to be
> understood as shouting.
>
> To answer your question, 'miztzvah' when used in everyday speech (that is,
> not in a theological discussion) might be translated as 'good deed' or
> 'generous act'.
> Tim Romano
>
> P.S. So, if your intent was to be insulting, you should apologize to the
> members of this forum. If your were honestly asking a question, let us
know,
> and others more knowledgeable than I am about Jewish culture may wish to
> elaborate on 'mitzvah.'
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Sarab Nihal Singh <[log in to unmask]>
> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Tuesday, 19 Oct 1999 12:27 AM
> Subject: know thy kulture 101
>
>
> > WHAT THE FUCK IS THE MITZVA ?
> >
> >
> > >From: "Jonathan P. Gill" <[log in to unmask]>
> > >Reply-To: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
> > >  <[log in to unmask]>
> > >To: [log in to unmask]
> > >Subject: Re: Anti-Semitism: getting started understanding it
> > >Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 09:37:00 -0400
> > >
> > >Fellow Poundians:
> > >
> > >I fear from Tim Romano's letter that some of us may be getting our
> > >knowledge of Judaism from Pound--a very bad idea.
> > >
> > >As regards interest and gentiles, the Hebrew Scriptures have hundreds
of
> > >laws, articulated in a variety of confusing ways (hence the secondary,
> > >tertiary legal literature). For every rule that talks about charging
> > >interest only to gentiles, there's one that says Jews are obligated to
> > >treat gentiles better than fellow Jews.
> > >
> > >As for alleged Jewish shame about coition, this seems to be some sort
of
> > >retroactive Pauline or Augustine influence.  Far from being considered
a
> > >bad thing, sex is part of man's side of the covenant--every observant
Jew
> > >knows that heterosexual intercourse in considered a mitzvah--especially
> on
> > >the Sabbath!
> > >
> > >I'm not blind to the restrictions in Jewish law on other kinds of sex
> > >(homosexuality, onanism, etc.)--but I suspect that, as usual, Pound was
> > >alot closer to the Jews on this issue that he was willing to admit.
> > >
> > >By the way, I'd like to hear from Leon Surette more often on this list.
> > >For now, I wonder how he compares his own view of Pound's "conversion"
to
> > >anti-semitism (apologies for the paraphrase) to that of Wendy Flory,
who
> > >dates it to 1935 and gives Ethiopia as the reason.
> > >
> > >Jonathan Gill
> > >Columbia University
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >On Mon, 18 Oct 1999, Tim Romano wrote:
> > >
> > > > Tim,
> > > > I won't suggest any literature that addresses your basic
> incomprehension
> > >of
> > > > the related hatreds. But hatred (racial, tribal, etc) does not seem
> > > > unnatural to me -- it seems more the anthropological rule than the
> > > > exception.  The Jews considered themselves the Chosen Race. African
> > >tribes
> > > > massacre each other. Many Koreans despise whites. The Japanese
> consider
> > > > themselves superior. Many whites consider blacks to be inferior. The
 
> > >ancient
> > > > Saxons thought the dark-skinned Britons were an inferior race. Not a
> > >modern
> > > > phenomenon by any means.  Genocide is nothing new. These feelings
are
> > > > perhaps instinctual.
> > > >
> > > > But I have not encountered anything that I would regard as racial or
> > >tribal
> > > > hatred in Pound's writings, though I've yet to read the Agresti
> letters
> > >and
> > > > am not very far into Pound's wartime radio broadcasts, and maybe
there
> > >is
> > > > evidence of this kind of hatred to be found in the things I haven't
> read
> > > > yet. In one of his wartime broadcasts, Pound actually speaks out
> against
> > >the
> > > > physical stereotyping of the Japanese in Zukor's animated cartoons.
> > > >
> > > > In what I have read of his, Pound's "anti-Semiticism" is
> > > > culturally/economically based.  Deuteronomy permits the Jews when
> > > > moneylending to charge interest to Gentiles only. Pound had great
> > >antipathy
> > > > for Jewish monotheism and the shame in which it shrouds the human
act
> of
> > > > coition. There are things one might reasonably hate about Jewish
> culture
> > > > which have nothing to do with racial or tribal hatred, or hatred of
> any
> > > > individual human being who happens to have been raised as a Jew,
just
> as
> > >one
> > > > might despise the practice of female infanticide or female genital
> > > > mutilation or the chopping off of the hands of petty thieves or the
> use
> > >of
> > > > the flagellum.  Some cultures are more humane than others, if not
more
> > > > human.
> > > >
> > > > Tim Romano
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: Tim Bray <[log in to unmask]>
> > > > To: <[log in to unmask]>
> > > > Sent: Monday, 18 Oct 1999 12:27 AM
> > > > Subject: Anti-Semitism: getting started understanding it
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > As a well-read non-humanist in his 40s who has spent time in the
> third
> > > > > world and seen tribal hate at work, the problem I have with all
the
> > > > holocaust
> > > > > literature is that it fails to address my basic incomprehension as
> to
> > >how
> > > > this
> > > > > could have happened.  I.e. how intelligent well-educated people
(eg
> > >EP,
> > > > nuts
> > > > > maybe, smart probably, well-educated definitely) can have thought
> such
> > > > > silly things and done such evil things?  The tribal hate I've seen
> > >could
> > > > not
> > > > > survive in the absence of real immediate grievance (they killed my
> > > > brother)
> > > > > and the presence of a decent education (history and ethics are
> > > > complicated).
> > > > >
> > > > > So, on the assumption that people who agonize over EP know
something
> > >about
> > > > > this subject, what would be a good recommendation for literature
to
> > > > address
> > > > > this basic incomprehension? -T.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> >
> > ______________________________________________________
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> >
> >