Tim: how did you get the conclusion "... especially from the Middle East and Asia..." ? Can you post an example here ? Peter Bi ----- Original Message ----- From: Tim Romano <[log in to unmask]> To: <[log in to unmask]> Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 1999 4:39 AM Subject: Re: know thy kulture 101 > Sarab Nihal Singh, > In a discussion that is already very difficult because the holocaust is its > backdrop, the way you have asked this question is perverse. But in case your > knowledge of English is not very good, "What the fuck..." can be an > insulting way of phrasing a question -- though, in a bar-room or fraternity > house, one might say "What the fuck is going on here, guys?" and the > question would be taken to be friendly and jocular. Also, the use of all > UPPER-CASE LETTERS is usually understood to be the written equivalent of > SHOUTING, though I notice that many non-English speakers, especially from > the Middle East and Asia, often use upper-case and do not intend to be > understood as shouting. > > To answer your question, 'miztzvah' when used in everyday speech (that is, > not in a theological discussion) might be translated as 'good deed' or > 'generous act'. > Tim Romano > > P.S. So, if your intent was to be insulting, you should apologize to the > members of this forum. If your were honestly asking a question, let us know, > and others more knowledgeable than I am about Jewish culture may wish to > elaborate on 'mitzvah.' > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Sarab Nihal Singh <[log in to unmask]> > To: <[log in to unmask]> > Sent: Tuesday, 19 Oct 1999 12:27 AM > Subject: know thy kulture 101 > > > > WHAT THE FUCK IS THE MITZVA ? > > > > > > >From: "Jonathan P. Gill" <[log in to unmask]> > > >Reply-To: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine > > > <[log in to unmask]> > > >To: [log in to unmask] > > >Subject: Re: Anti-Semitism: getting started understanding it > > >Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 09:37:00 -0400 > > > > > >Fellow Poundians: > > > > > >I fear from Tim Romano's letter that some of us may be getting our > > >knowledge of Judaism from Pound--a very bad idea. > > > > > >As regards interest and gentiles, the Hebrew Scriptures have hundreds of > > >laws, articulated in a variety of confusing ways (hence the secondary, > > >tertiary legal literature). For every rule that talks about charging > > >interest only to gentiles, there's one that says Jews are obligated to > > >treat gentiles better than fellow Jews. > > > > > >As for alleged Jewish shame about coition, this seems to be some sort of > > >retroactive Pauline or Augustine influence. Far from being considered a > > >bad thing, sex is part of man's side of the covenant--every observant Jew > > >knows that heterosexual intercourse in considered a mitzvah--especially > on > > >the Sabbath! > > > > > >I'm not blind to the restrictions in Jewish law on other kinds of sex > > >(homosexuality, onanism, etc.)--but I suspect that, as usual, Pound was > > >alot closer to the Jews on this issue that he was willing to admit. > > > > > >By the way, I'd like to hear from Leon Surette more often on this list. > > >For now, I wonder how he compares his own view of Pound's "conversion" to > > >anti-semitism (apologies for the paraphrase) to that of Wendy Flory, who > > >dates it to 1935 and gives Ethiopia as the reason. > > > > > >Jonathan Gill > > >Columbia University > > > > > > > > > > > >On Mon, 18 Oct 1999, Tim Romano wrote: > > > > > > > Tim, > > > > I won't suggest any literature that addresses your basic > incomprehension > > >of > > > > the related hatreds. But hatred (racial, tribal, etc) does not seem > > > > unnatural to me -- it seems more the anthropological rule than the > > > > exception. The Jews considered themselves the Chosen Race. African > > >tribes > > > > massacre each other. Many Koreans despise whites. The Japanese > consider > > > > themselves superior. Many whites consider blacks to be inferior. The > > >ancient > > > > Saxons thought the dark-skinned Britons were an inferior race. Not a > > >modern > > > > phenomenon by any means. Genocide is nothing new. These feelings are > > > > perhaps instinctual. > > > > > > > > But I have not encountered anything that I would regard as racial or > > >tribal > > > > hatred in Pound's writings, though I've yet to read the Agresti > letters > > >and > > > > am not very far into Pound's wartime radio broadcasts, and maybe there > > >is > > > > evidence of this kind of hatred to be found in the things I haven't > read > > > > yet. In one of his wartime broadcasts, Pound actually speaks out > against > > >the > > > > physical stereotyping of the Japanese in Zukor's animated cartoons. > > > > > > > > In what I have read of his, Pound's "anti-Semiticism" is > > > > culturally/economically based. Deuteronomy permits the Jews when > > > > moneylending to charge interest to Gentiles only. Pound had great > > >antipathy > > > > for Jewish monotheism and the shame in which it shrouds the human act > of > > > > coition. There are things one might reasonably hate about Jewish > culture > > > > which have nothing to do with racial or tribal hatred, or hatred of > any > > > > individual human being who happens to have been raised as a Jew, just > as > > >one > > > > might despise the practice of female infanticide or female genital > > > > mutilation or the chopping off of the hands of petty thieves or the > use > > >of > > > > the flagellum. Some cultures are more humane than others, if not more > > > > human. > > > > > > > > Tim Romano > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: Tim Bray <[log in to unmask]> > > > > To: <[log in to unmask]> > > > > Sent: Monday, 18 Oct 1999 12:27 AM > > > > Subject: Anti-Semitism: getting started understanding it > > > > > > > > > > > > > As a well-read non-humanist in his 40s who has spent time in the > third > > > > > world and seen tribal hate at work, the problem I have with all the > > > > holocaust > > > > > literature is that it fails to address my basic incomprehension as > to > > >how > > > > this > > > > > could have happened. I.e. how intelligent well-educated people (eg > > >EP, > > > > nuts > > > > > maybe, smart probably, well-educated definitely) can have thought > such > > > > > silly things and done such evil things? The tribal hate I've seen > > >could > > > > not > > > > > survive in the absence of real immediate grievance (they killed my > > > > brother) > > > > > and the presence of a decent education (history and ethics are > > > > complicated). > > > > > > > > > > So, on the assumption that people who agonize over EP know something > > >about > > > > > this subject, what would be a good recommendation for literature to > > > > address > > > > > this basic incomprehension? -T. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ______________________________________________________ > > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > > >