Rick,

    Following this vein whether it should lead to alchemical success and
GOLD or to a large deposit of fool's gold/ dross I found this fascinating
excerpt on "poor old Upward", who some would say went downward, in Ezra's
letter to Harriet Monroe 1914;
    "Mr. Allen Upward, whom you have printed to your honour, was, as
proconsul in Nigeria, always careful to explain to the natives that
Christianity was not the universal religion of England and that there were
many who looked upon it as a degrading superstition. I know that he
performed at least one 'miracle' by means of a Gnostic gem*, and reconverted
at least one Mohammedan."-Pound
    The aftermath of the discussion here makes it comforting to see that one
is in the good company of some old modernist holdouts not so willing to go
for the torches and pitchforks at the first innuendo of anathema that
someone is whispering dangerous and seditious secrets sub rosa.
    And Carrol you forgot crop circles and other semiotics.

Charles

*probably refers to Upward's "seal Sitalkas" (Canto 74) a gem seal depicting
the god Apollo with grain (See Pausanias 10.15.2)

    "Sitalkas, double Sitalkas
    'not the priest but the victim'
  said Allen Upward
knew something was phoney, when he (Pellegrini)
    sd/ : the money is there." -Canto LXXVIII

"War is the maximum sabotage. The game of inflate and deflate is played in
the whole OF SERIES of wars, staged one after another." -Ezra's supplement
to his Sworn Statement, May 8, 1945

----------
>From: Richard Seddon <[log in to unmask]>
>To: [log in to unmask]
>Subject: Re: Pound and the Occult (was Re: Cantgo ergo possum physic)
>Date: Tue, Jan 28, 2003, 10:33 AM
>

> Tim & Charles
>
> First, the Occult is alive and well written about.  Visit any bookstore and
> you will find a large section devoted to Tarot cards, Crystals and the
> Secret writings of (fill in the blank).  People write (usually not well) of
> the occult and secret history/tradition all the time.  The secret and the
> mystical seem to fascinate.
>
> Second,   W.B. Yeats was a self-acknowledged occultist.  Denying Yeats as an
> Occultist is to deny objective fact.  There is absolutely no more question
> of his beliefs and practices than there is of Blake's.
>
> Third;  at times, Surette, Materer and Tryphonopoulos have chosen  to study
> the Modernists in terms of the Occult.  This should not earn them the
> reprobation that Charles is so ready to hurl.  I would definitely recommend
> at least the introduction of Materer's book "Modernist Alchemy" to anyone.
> These studies are at least as valid as the methodology of Marxist critical
> theory that is so often recommended on this list.
>
> The references that Charles had picked from Weston were baldly Occult.  They
> referred to secret history and access to that history by initiates only.
> Since he was speaking of Weston in terms of "The Waste Land" and had
> referenced the Occult through his quotes,  I thought it appropriate to
> suggest an essay that studied all three.
>
> What is Mystical and what is Occult?  Where does one start and the other
> end?  I think often the same person is both Mysticist and Occultist which
> gives rise to the confusion of which he/she is.  He or she is actually both.
> But an Occultist can be not Mystical and a Mysticist can be not Occultist.
> Julian of Norwich is an example of a Christian Mystic who was not into the
> Occult.  Neo-Platonism can be mystical and is usually not Occult.  Supposed
> discoveries, from secret maps passed through the ages to initiates only, of
> tunnels under the pyramids can be Occult and not Mystical.  Much of UFOlogy
> is Occult without being mystical.  Mystical involves a union with God.  The
> Occult involves secret history/tradition/ritual available only to initiates.
> Where the two join is in secret theurgies, available to initiates only,
> which promise union with a God.  The Eleusian mysteries were Occultist in
> their secret rituals and mystical in their suggestions of union with the
> Gods.  Pound can be legitimately read to be deeply interested in both
> Mysticism and the Occult.  Pound's recommendation of Alan Upward's "The
> Divine Mystery" can be taken as an interest in mythology or as also an
> interest in the Occult or both.
>
> Pound was a regular attendee at Mead's "The Quest" society, as was Dorothy
> Shakespear.  He wrote essays for "The Quest" and delivered papers at the
> meetings.  Pound's "Psychology and Troubadours" was initially published in
> "The Quest" an avowed Occultist journal.
>
> A worshiper of Progressivism may use studies or belief of the Occult and
> Mysticism as a pejorative.  I do not.  This denial does not imply support
> for the Occult or Mystical.  It simply means that I will not damn someone
> for his legitimate beliefs or interests.
>
> Rick Seddon
> McIntosh, NM