Questions for JB:

JB wrote:

<<  what?  where did "self-proclaimed come" from?  >>

That is a fair question.  Some of our disagreement about the nature of a
vanguard may simply be semantic.  The Leninist theory of the vanguard
includes the notion that a party, (and an elite group within that party, and
an elite individual within that group) should have the power to guide  the
destiny of a nation, or of a movement, without regard to the democratic will
of the people, as expressed through elections, or recalls, and other means
of ensuring accountability.

Of course the word vanguard literally means "advanced guard," and
etymologically speaking, it refers to a military formation, namely, the
group assuming the foremost position in a fleet or army.

Would agree that in the case of a political vanguard, the leader and his
associates may ride the wave of a popular uprising, and then negate the will
of the people by arrogating powers, and then suppressing opposition USING
THE VANGUARD THEORY, as a justification of their oppression?    Would you agree
or disagree that this is what Mussolini, Hitler, Lenin, and Mao did?

<<are you suggesting that there haven't been political,
economic, literary, & historical vanguards that have been exactly that?>>

Each vanguard in history must be judged, I believe, on the basis of its
concrete acheivements.   Danton referred to himself and his French
revolutionary cohorts as the "spearhead of the revolution," --- to the
extent that the Dantonists helped destroy the power of the aristocracy, and
the monarchy they were progressive, and merited the term genuine "vanguard".
  To the extent that the Dantonists worked to deprive the proletariat and
the peasants of power, they must be judged as opposed to the genuine
vanguard, which, depending on your point of view, might be the
Robespierrists, or the Hebertistes, or the followers of Jaques Roux, or of
Babeuf, or of Anarcharsis Clootz.  The matter is obviously complex.

In the matters of Art, there is no such thing as the vanguard, except in
matters of stylistic or formal innovation.



<<no, no no no no no no no no no no, all vanguards are not self proclaimed
-->>

Some are not, and some are.  In matters of political and social progress,
most are, I would think.


<<indeed, some are not even recognized as having been vanguards until much
later>>

Don't they have to be recognized as such in politics?  Otherwise, how will
people know whether or not to follow them?


<<& vanguards, as the events in Tianiman Square show, don't always succeed>>

You are assuming that there was a vanguard in Tiananmen.  Who were these
members of the vanguard? Chai LIng, or Wu 'er Kaixi or someone else?  A
vanguard must have a clear program, and my own opinion, as much as I would
like to see the realization of democracy in China, is that these students
did NOT have a clear program. This is part of the reason for their failure,
aside from the fact that virtually no connection was made with workers or
peasants groups.


<<& no, I'm not too impressed with your examples of "democracy" -- they
struck me as either so small or so fleeting -- or not democracies at all --
so as not to have much, if any, lasting impact.>>

But did you not just say that a vanguard may not succeed.  Some of the
movements I mentioned have not succeeded YET.  This is not to deny that
their acheivements, modest though they might be,  could portend great
developments in the future.

I would request that you make clear what you believe to be an admirable
"vanguard" in history, or an admirable democratic movement in history.  I
can appreciate that you might not like some of the examples I mentioned.   I
only offered them as a very small list of possibly exemplary movements.
They all have shortcomings and limitations.  Yet we have huge tracts of
history to choose from.  This is why I wonder what historical strivings, in
terms of movements or individuals you find admirable.  Putting Pound's
historical exemplars aside for the moment, who or what would be on your
list?

----Wei


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