JB wrote:

>>no. no no no no no no no no no. no.   a vanguard is not, ipso facto,
>>elitist.  it may be enlightened . . .

Which self-proclaimed vanguards are NOT elitist?  Why is the very notion of
a vanguard not elitist?

All vanguards are "enlightened," or at least claim to be enlightened.  This
is why the vanguard notion is so insidious, whether the "leading light" is a
fascist vanguard, or a Marxist-Leninist vanguard.


>>it could be a vanguard of another color, such as the Reagan Vanguard,
>>which trumpeted freedom while doing everything in its power to diminish
>>same.

We agree on this point.  The Reagan Revolution, so-called, however, hardly
merits discussion in this context, since it was not really led by any sort
of vanguard (self-proclaimed or otherwise). I tend to see it simply as one
of countless impositions by the plutocracy (or oligarchical forces) on the
electorate.




>>
the Leninist Vanguard probably contained a number of participants who were
surprised by what happened --especially to them.
>>

Quite true, if you are referring to such people as Trotsky, Bukharin, Radek,
and Tomsky.  They did fare quite poorly.


>>you
could have, for example, chosen the democracy vanguard that was
steamrollered
in Tianiman Square.
>>


I could have chosen any number of examples to illustrate the concept of
democracy. But I am not interested in "vanguards", only in indiviudals and
movements who are loyal to the people as a whole and to the concepts of
democracy and accountability.  Whenever they come to believe that they are
special cases, who do not need to abide by the values they uphold for others
, they become very uninteresting, and deserving of oblivion.

The "democracy movement," so-called, which was mercilessly crushed near
Tiananmen, was sorely lacking to qualify as a people's movement or a
democratic movement.  It was a student's movement, and very little more than
that.  It was good in and of itself, and the students did go so far as to
make true democratic demands.  Some of the  students did, at first, organize
themselves democratically, and make reasonable attempts to practice
democracy.  But they did not make any real effort to link up with the labor
movement and the peasants movements in China, and hence were doomed to
failure.  The 1989 Tiananmen incidents cannot hold a candle to France's Mai
'68, when the student's movement was closely allied with workers successes
in taking over numerous factories, and running the factories on a democratic
basis.  France came very close to creating "Sixth Republic", which could
have inaugurated an entirely new phase in the development human social
orders, placing humankind closer to the realization of a genuinely
democratic and de-centralized socialistic society.

You don't seem, JB, too attracted to any of the democratic movements I have
cited.  I wonder if you could put forward what you might consider as one or
two of the greatest approaches which mankind has made toward democracy.

--Wei

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