Tim Romano wrote:
>Subject: Re: What about saying RELIGIOUSLY, Pound was an ORTHODOX
>CONFUCIAN??
>
>Wei,
>I do not doubt that you are correct with respect to its central importance
>for Pound, but you have merely asserted, and have not demonstrated, that
>the
>Ta Hio was considered by Pound to be a "metaphysical" and "theological"
>document. The "axe" metaphor suggests that Pound saw the Ta Hio, if
>anything, as an "anti-metaphysical" document, something with which to cut
>through the "jungle" of "Western idealism". Rather like Occam's razor. And
>the remaining quotes you have offered, while they do go to your point about
>the weight Pound assigned this document, indicate that Pound regarded the
>Ta
>Hio as primarily a secular document, i.e. a document governing the mundane
>behavior of peoples engaging in social intercourse and civilized commerce.
You are essentially correct, insofar as I need to elucidate the evidence
further. First, there is nothing secular about Confucianism or Confucius
(in the Western sense of the word). It implies a metaphysic, and the
Confucian texts state metaphysical principles (in other words, they do more
than simply make statements about social behavior; the texts make statements
about the supernatural, and about the relationship between men living in
society and the proper attitude toward the supernatural. More on that
later).
Let me point to feature of the Pound quotes which are "metaphysical". While
you are right that parts of the texts are anti-metaphysical (in that they
can be used to combat the "wrong" metaphysic); they also reaffirm another
metaphysic, the "correct" one. Pound demonstrates awareness of this, though
I think it is difficult to find an analogy in Western thought to make it
easy to understand. (Perhaps it is similar to certain types of
Aristoteleanism, which can be used to demolish some metaphysical
presumptions, but which, can also be used to affirm other metaphysical
postulates, such as that of the Unmoved Mover .... I am NOT saying Confucius
does THIS precisely. . . I just suggest it as an analogy).
Lets look at Pound's words, and then at the TA HIO itself.
". . . .considering a value already age-old, and never to end while men are
. . . " This implies an essential or eternal ethic, which transcends all
cultures and times. Not sufficient I admit, but go further:
[T]he whole of Western idealism is a jungle. Christian
theology is a jungle. To think through it, to reduce it
to some semblance of order, there is no better axe
than the Ta Hio
(SP, 78).
Notice he does not want to do away with, or demolish theology (or idealism,
for that matter); the passage simply means he wants it "put it in order."
Confucian theology does exist in the TA HIO. Pound likes the TA HIO,
because its theology is simple, straightforward, not because the work is
totally anti-metaphysical. The same type of thinking applies to his talk
of 'virtu'
There exists passage after passage in our serious
medieval thinkers which contains the terms 'virtu,'
virtus, with vivid and dynamic meaning. But it is
precisely the kind of thought that is now atrophied
in the Occident. This is precisely how we do not
now think.
It is for these values that we have need of
Ta Hio . . .
(SP, 78).
Pound here is praising Medieval theology, as he does elsewhere. He does not
dismiss the medieval texts because they are in themselves theological, or
because they contain metaphysical presuppostions. Confucianism itself has
such presuppostions, but they are more orderly, "vivid" and "dynamic"
concepts, Pound thinks. The ground for Virtu in both Western medieval
theology, and in Confucian thought, has its origin in an otherworldly
source: God or Heaven.
Remember Pound says,
No one has ever yet exhausted the wisdom of the
forty-six ideograms of the first chapter
(SP, 79).
Well, look at the first chapter: Note the reference to the "decrees of
Heaven." Legge's translation runs as follows:
Chapter I 1. In the announcement to K'ang, it is
said, 'He was able to make his virtue illustrious.'
2. In the Tai Chia, it is said, 'He contemplated
and studied the ILLUSTRIOUS DECREES OF HEAVEN" [emphasis added]
3. In the Canon of the Emperor (Yao),
it is said, 'He was able to make illustrious his
lofty virtue.
4. These passages all show how those
sovereigns made themselves illustrious
(Legge, The Chinese Classics, vol. 1, 360-361).
"Heaven" (or "Tian" in Chinese) is a metaphysical concept. It is vague, and
difficult to define, but definitlely a metaphysical principle, which is
losely analygous to Aristotle's Unmoved Mover, and has as part of its
significance the idea of a MORAL PATTERN, which all should follow,
especially the ruler (who himself is the pattern --exemplar --for his
subjects).
So how does this relate to Pound's polytheism and his pagan beliefs? Quite
directly I would say.
You can see how Pound expresses his metaphysical views in his rendering of
the following passage (from a Confucian classic) by using both the words
"spirits" and "gods."
Where Legge says the spirits "cause all the people . . . to array themselves
in their richest dresses, in order to
attend at their sacrifices," Pound writes, "they impel the people . . . to
array themselves for the rites, to carry
human affairs to the cognizance of the gods with their sacrifice" (Con.,
13). The reference to the "gods," which
has no textual justification, I would argue, derives from the poet's
syncretist impulse, his desire to equate the Greek pagan and Chinese
spiritual cosmologies. There is nothing in Confucianism which does not
encourage some form of worship of gods/spirits . . . On the contrary,
proper rites and reverence toward the spirits are required.
Pound also renders a longer passage concerning spirits from the
Book of Poetry (the Odes), that is not quoted in the original Chung Yung.
Part of Pound's passage reads,
The thought of the multitude
Can not grasp the categories
Of the thoughts of the SPIRITS [emphasis added]
Circumvolving, but the tense mind
Can shoot arrows toward them
(Con., 13).
The fact that the spirits have "thoughts" in Pound's unwarranted addition,
and that they "impel the people,"
indicates that Pound believed such spirits (or gods) have some sort of
independent existence, as he asserts
both in the Guide to Kulchur and Axiomata. Of course, Confucius himself
refers numerous times to the existence of spirits as a positive fact. It is
a common misconception of Confucian thought to think it is secular,
agnostic, or atheistical. This might require more evidence, probably, to be
established according to your satisfaction.
You conclude:
>The problem Pound identified in the predominant strains of western
>judeo-christian idealism, is that, with its eye on eschatology, it was
>otherworldy, rejecting the notion of individual and collective human
>achievement, and infusing human sexuality with guilt. This strain of
>western
>religious teaching (a typical tract would be "On Generation and
>Corruption")
>would create more T.S. Eliots, not more William Carlos Williamses.
>Tim Romano
>
I think you are right about Pound's diagnosis of Christianity. Right on the
mark. But it should be made clear that neither Pound, nor Confucius,
reject the otherworldly or the existence of gods (or spirits). They both,
in fact, affirm it the other world. However, they do so in a way which (by
Western standards) appears less dogmatic less tied to specific assertions
about the nature of the other world. (In actual fact the Confucian
standards for the forms of the rites were as rigid or more rigid than
Western standards; the content of "belief" was less regulated).
Regards,
Wei
http://www.geocities.com/weienlin/religion.html
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