ergo: the world by definition is fascist... is that what is ment by "fallen"? stoneking ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert Kibler <[log in to unmask]> To: <[log in to unmask]> Sent: Friday, August 27, 1999 9:02 AM Subject: Re: EP and academics > Where is the social program that does not create a boundary between those who fit within it, and those who are outside? I may not agree with such boundary making, but as a phenomenon it is so ubiquitous on the planet that we should perhaps hedge a little before pointing a finger at fascism as the example. In my experience, and according to what I have read about Nationalism and the formation of national identities, there are collective psychological causes behind both the formation of a national identies or boundaries. Schlegel and Ardt's call for a German identify separate from an Englightenment identity, for example, was rooted in some need for a group of folk in the backwater of European culture to be heard on their own. To do this, the Germans needed to formulate a national, rather than a European identify. So it has always been. The degree to which the boundary separating those within from those without becomes a victimizing one often has to do with the amount of external pressure put upon those within.. The more the pressure, the clearer the delineation between an us and a them, the more narrow the definition of the us as opposed to the them, and the more malevolent the treatment of those who are them. > In good times, the same folk celebrate diversity. > > >>> William Stoneking <[log in to unmask]> 08/27 7:31 AM >>> > Fascism has as one of its guiding tenets the exclusion of certain groups of > people... > who do not belong within the identifiable boundaries (guiding mythologies) > of the > group in power (the group which sets the agenda for what is right, valuable > and > worthy of perpetration).... it makes victims of those who are not identified > with the > fatherland... indeed, with Fascism, the myth of of national identity demands > an > exclusionary clause... an us and them mentality is central to this... i.e.: > the > farthest point one can go from a Confucian ethic which upholds the ideal of > jen > (human-heartedness) in all human intercourse. Ironically, to the extent that > Pound list members exclude some of their fellows on the basis of academic vs > non-academic, published vs non-published.... and to the degree that they use > this perception in order to promote their own identity, etc... to this > degree they > are fascist. > > Stoneking > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Robert Kibler <[log in to unmask]> > To: <[log in to unmask]> > Sent: Friday, August 27, 1999 8:15 AM > Subject: Re: EP and academics > > > > No, I certainly would not, and in fact, for years, just the opposite was > true. I judged the magnicifent ideality of the Soviet Constitution--or the > communist experiment--by the actuality of Soviet communism. Having lived in > China, and having travelled extensively in the Societ Union, I have seen > first hand the oppression an ideal social program can bring to actual social > situations. So when in graduate school, where many students and faculty > remain fashionably Marxist, I took the position that we should not be > irresponsibly wielding political ideologies as a literary tool, when they > have caused so much damage to human beings on the planet. Lit crit should > not exist or operate in a complete vacuum. Lit crit should not separate > ideological cause from real time effect. > > But you know, I am not as sure now that any social ideology causes the > damage--whether it is democratic, national socialist, monarchist, fascist, > roman catholic, protestant--what have you. All they do is prove--their > presence proves--that people want to bond together for protection against > enemies real and imagined. They want to believe in something, be productive, > triumphant, and in the right. And they want the rewards that should come > from right action. But the ideologies themselves simply become a vehicle > for those who would drive them. And those who do drive them--they are nearly > always the problem. They can take any ideology where they want it to go. > > Fascism is no better nor worse than any of the other isms out there. > And it has a beauty--a good intention, in ways--and in ways, it even > resulted in some positive social effects. What did Pound say--he wished that > his work would be examined in its parts, and not taken and judged at once, > as a whole. The Fascist doctrinal texts deserve a read--as does the > communist manifesto, and the historical records of the See of Peter. And in > like manner, we should learn to separate out what is positive from what is > negative, even from that which seems to have an overwhelming amount of the > negative to it. My response that fascism gets a rap is directed against > wholesale judgements. It is so easy to say 'and yes, fascism,' then roll our > eyes and bond in agreement that it was a horrible, despicable nightmare for > the world and for people. It may have been that too. But I would suggest > that we not consider THAT the whole story, that we instead look at the story > in its parts. > > As society, like academia, moves further and further away from > condoning or promoting anything like independent thought, the accepted use > of history is as a series of summary, wholistic soundbites. They are, after > all, a lot easier to acquire than is a diverse judgement of parts. And such > wholistic judgements are becoming the ever more requisite shibboleths to > social acceptance. > > Call it a quirk, but of this I am wary. > > >>> Daniel Pearlman <[log in to unmask]> 08/26 9:16 PM >>> > > I'm sure you would not judge the actuality of Soviet communism > > by the magnificent ideality of the Soviet Constitution. > > > > ==Dan > > > > At 05:49 PM 8/26/99 -0500, you wrote: > > >As a utopian vision, Fascism has some merit. Mussollini's manifesto, for > > example, promotes some of the same kind of ideas as does Confucius--a need > > for order, but within order, flexibility. The need to subordinate the > > individual to the whole. Some may argue against the merit of this--and I > am > > not sure that I like it myself--but it is the same impulse that built us > > great cathedrals in the middle ages, for example. Like fashion, certain > > terms, like certain writers, become throw aways--especially in the > academy. > > That is, for years, it was fashionable to condemn Nietzsche, because of > > the alleged connection between his philosophy and the Nazis. It in fact > was > > so easy to condemn him that no one had to read him. Yet there is no Nazi > in > > Nietzsche. If anything, he is sort of Buddhist. For years (even now) it > has > > been easy to throw away Pound, rather than to read him. How many of you > > have encountered resistance somewhere along the line when you suggested > > that you liked Pound? How many people have had difficulty getting > > professors to teach him? What is his place in the Modernist anthologies? > > Likewise, there are some darn compelling essays on fascism as a social > > program. > > > And they finally got those swamps drained in Italy, right? > > > > > >>>> Joe Brennan <[log in to unmask]> 08/26 5:26 PM >>> > > >since I'm obviously (I thought) punning, it has several meanings -- > assent, > > >of course, and also a comment on pound's "political leanings." > > > > > >jb.... > > > > > >In a message dated 8/26/99 3:41:29 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > > [log in to unmask] > > >writes: > > > > > ><< > > > i trust this acknowledges your assent, and not a > > > declaration of political leanings... > > > > > > Stoneking > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: Joe Brennan <[log in to unmask]> > > > To: <[log in to unmask]> > > > Sent: Thursday, August 26, 1999 3:05 PM > > > Subject: Re: EP and academics > > > > > > > > > > or even right on.... > > > > > > > > In a message dated 8/26/99 2:53:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > > > > [log in to unmask] writes: > > > > > > > > << right. > > > > >> > > > > > HOME: > > Dan Pearlman > > 102 Blackstone Blvd. #5 > > Providence, RI 02906 > > Tel.: 401 453-3027 > > email: [log in to unmask] > > Fax: (253) 681-8518 > > http://www.uri.edu/artsci/english/clf/ > > > > OFFICE > > Department of English > > University of Rhode Island > > Kingston, RI 02881 > > Tel.: 401 874-4659 > > >