-- [ From: Kepler * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] -- Vicki's comments/questions on rough play are interesting. I'll bite (no wait, that's a different kind of fighting) -- I'll share a conversation I was having with a friend a few days ago -- she's a university professor who until last week had never seen a hockey game in person. (Hey, I'm *trying* to bring haute culture to Oregon, one person at a time...) * * * She: I know you'll think this is intellectualizing, but i can't help it. Eric objects to the violence in hockey and the crowd going for it (these are odd sides for us to be on because he often thinks in terms of physical competition with other men and admires some of the martial arts) - but anyway I argued that it's controlled violence - these guys can let their adrenaline take them that direction and they *know* there are limits. The crowd, too, knows there are limits. Referees stop them, security officers are around, things will be clamped down on and the person doesn't have to do it for himself. So it feels like they're letting loose but actually the boundaries are still there. Pretty safe, don't you think? and just as well . I guess your word "ritualized" sort of captures it. Me: That's intellectualization. :-p But that doesn't mean I reject it -- in fact, I think on the cerebral side it is completely true. Well, ok, I think it is partly true. Everything you just said goes for the players -- they know just what is happening, what the limits are, etc. Example: Portland just made a trade and brought in a new player. This guy is a big, tough kid -- a fighter -- and he has been in numerous fights with Portland players over the years. He was interviewed last night, and the press guy asked him what the reaction was from the Portland players with whom he has fought (this was a polite way of saying, "whom he has beaten up" -- like I said, he's a big guy.) He basically said (within the bounds of what an underage person can say in a public forum), that they all went out, got shit -faced, and laughed about it all night. So, the players know. The fans....? I'm not sure. The get so into it, and they practically lose all control. They're a mob -- there's no way getting around it. They're no different from a lynch mob or a looting mob or whatever. Now, that may be possible because of the boundaries around it (as you said, it's safe and contained, "not real") -- but like I said, I don't know. I used to be completely repelled by the fighting. Now I watch, though I don't "root" for one person or the other -- I just see it as spectacle (especially because the combatants are "in on it"). In that way, I do enjoy it, though it's usually just laughing at the idiocy of it all. * * * So, on the player side, I think it is very much like pro westling: "give the morons what they want, then go out and split the profits." There is a well- observed code of ethics about fighting -- the goons pair off and dance, every once in a while someone who rides around with his stick high is given a not so subtle reminder of the safety issues of the game. But, breath on a "designated non combatant" (small player, star, goalie, European) the wrong way, and not only will half the opposition bear down on you, but nobody on your side will defend you -- "you've broken the unwritten rule" (Monty Python mode off). On the fan side, spend 5 minutes in Boston Garden (for that matter, anywhere in Boston) and you'll see that evolution missed 75% of our charming brethren . There are plenty of socially, financially (and no doubt in other ways) impotent types who get their ya-ya's out by proxy. But hey, even if they're clueless, it's better than having them beat hell out of their own kids. -- * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Greg Berge * Portland, Oregon * [log in to unmask] * www.spiritone.com/~kepler * HOCKEY-L is for discussion of college ice hockey; send information to [log in to unmask], The College Hockey Information List.