Robert E. Kibler
Department of English
University of Minnesota
[log in to unmask]
fortunatus et ille, deos qui novit agrestis,
Panaque Silvanumque senem Nymphasque sorores.
--************ Message Separator(448109074) ************
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Y25dp,6dY25dp,Jd+$3S0#Jd+8dS!!!:
--************ Message Separator(448109074) ************--
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 11:44:23 -0800
Reply-To: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Safdie Joseph <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: I hope thos humorous look at postmodernism gets to you
Comments: To: Robert E Kibler <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
Everyone should read this IMMEDIATELY -- it's spectacularly funny!
Thanks, Robert, for providing evidence that my old graduate school buddy
Mark Leyner is still capable of hilarity -- and would one of you
cross-posters from the poetics list transfer it over there as well?
> <<File: PART4.txt>>
> --************ Message Separator(448109074) ************
>
>
> Robert E. Kibler
> Department of English
> University of Minnesota
> [log in to unmask]
>
> fortunatus et ille, deos qui novit agrestis,
> Panaque Silvanumque senem Nymphasque sorores.
>
>
> --************ Message Separator(448109074) ************
> Content-Type: application/mac-binhex40; name = "PART4.TXT"
>
>
> --************ Message Separator(448109074) ************--
>
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 14:47:58 -0500
Reply-To: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Gregory {Greg} Downing <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: I hope thos humorous look at postmodernism gets to you
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 11:44 AM 1/14/98 -0800, you wrote:
>Everyone should read this IMMEDIATELY -- it's spectacularly funny!
>
>Thanks, Robert, for providing evidence that my old graduate school buddy
>Mark Leyner is still capable of hilarity -- and would one of you
>cross-posters from the poetics list transfer it over there as well?
>
>
Was the joke that it was computer code -- hence, unreadable?
(":#9""8P3d,P4B9!"849K869G*53#3"#B@!*!%F#%0#L"(CA*KE'4[,#"&BA3J@@p" etc.)
Anyway, that's what I and maybe others got in our inboxes....
Greg Downing/NYU, at [log in to unmask] or [log in to unmask]
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 14:37:23 -0500
Reply-To: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Burt Hatlen <[log in to unmask]>
Organization: University of Maine
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Calling all Poundians!
The Pound Society is eligible to present two panels at the American
Literature Association convention in San Diego, May 28-31, 1998 (that's
Thursday through Sunday). One of our panels this year will be devoted
to "Teaching Modernist Poetry," organized by Jewel Spears Brooker. But
at this point we have only the one panel. I am, very belatedly, trying
to put together a second panel, and at this point I have two open slots
for papers. Is anyone out there interested? The topic at this point is
open--that is, I would be happy to consider any Pound-related
presentation. But we have to make this happen fast--the program
deadline is January 30. So please e-mail me immediately if you are
interested.
The ALA is a very loosely organized group that meets in pleasant
settings--in this case a beach-front hotel in San Diego. Some of us
have been working for several years at building a Modernist presence at
the conference, and this year as in previous years there will be, I
think, panels organized by the Williams, H.D., Eliot, Stevens,
Cummings, etc., societies, along with the Pound Society panel(s). I
esecially invite people on the west coast to think about submitting
proposals.
Burt Hatlen
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 15:31:58 -0500
Reply-To: Robert E Kibler <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "Robert E. Kibler" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: I hope thos humorous look at postmodernism gets to you
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
On Wed, 14 Jan 1998 14:47:58 -0500 wrote...
>At 11:44 AM 1/14/98 -0800, you wrote:
>>
shoot--did some folk get it as computer code? sorry. It was an enclosure sent
to me--I hate to deal with enclosures at all, but thought this spoof of
post-modernism and post-modernists worth the effort. I think I sent it binhex,
which is the default option on my computer software.
Everyone should read this IMMEDIATELY -- it's spectacularly funny!
>>
>>Thanks, Robert, for providing evidence that my old graduate school buddy
>>Mark Leyner is still capable of hilarity -- and would one of you
>>cross-posters from the poetics list transfer it over there as well?
>>
>>
>
>Was the joke that it was computer code -- hence, unreadable?
>
>(":#9""8P3d,P4B9!"849K869G*53#3"#B@!*!%F#%0#L"(CA*KE'4[,#"&BA3J@@p" etc.)
>
>Anyway, that's what I and maybe others got in our inboxes....
>
>Greg Downing/NYU, at [log in to unmask] or [log in to unmask]
>
>
Robert E. Kibler
Department of English
University of Minnesota
[log in to unmask]
fortunatus et ille, deos qui novit agrestis,
Panaque Silvanumque senem Nymphasque sorores.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 16:22:40 -0500
Reply-To: Robert E Kibler <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "Robert E. Kibler" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: last try at post-modern humor
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
----- Forwarded Message Starts Here -----
From: [log in to unmask]
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 09:39:53 -0600
To: Robert E. Kibler
Subject: Postmodernist Trauma? (humor)
----- Forwarded Message Ends Here -----
Robert E. Kibler
Department of English
University of Minnesota
[log in to unmask]
fortunatus et ille, deos qui novit agrestis,
Panaque Silvanumque senem Nymphasque sorores.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 16:50:51 -0500
Reply-To: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Gregory {Greg} Downing <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: last try at post-modern humor
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
This is what I got from your last -- others too I imagine.... Why not just
cut-and-paste the message into your own email system. Your basic email
messages always seem to come through. But it's up to you!
At 04:22 PM 1/14/98, you (Robert E Kibler <[log in to unmask]>) wrote:
>----- Forwarded Message Starts Here -----
>
>From: [log in to unmask]
>Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 09:39:53 -0600
>To: Robert E. Kibler
>Subject: Postmodernist Trauma? (humor)
>
>----- Forwarded Message Ends Here -----
>Robert E. Kibler
>Department of English [etc.]
Greg Downing/NYU, at [log in to unmask] or [log in to unmask]
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 17:09:19 -0500
Reply-To: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Daniel Pearlman <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: last try at post-modern humor
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Ditto! The Kibler forward was unreadable code.
==Dan P
At 04:50 PM 1/14/98 -0500, you wrote:
>This is what I got from your last -- others too I imagine.... Why not just
>cut-and-paste the message into your own email system. Your basic email
>messages always seem to come through. But it's up to you!
>
>
>At 04:22 PM 1/14/98, you (Robert E Kibler <[log in to unmask]>) wrote:
>>----- Forwarded Message Starts Here -----
>>
>>From: [log in to unmask]
>>Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 09:39:53 -0600
>>To: Robert E. Kibler
>>Subject: Postmodernist Trauma? (humor)
>>
>>----- Forwarded Message Ends Here -----
>>Robert E. Kibler
>>Department of English [etc.]
>Greg Downing/NYU, at [log in to unmask] or [log in to unmask]
>
Dan Pearlman
Department of English
University of Rhode Island
Kingston, RI 02881
[Latest book: novel, BLACK FLAMES, White Pine Press, 1997]
Tel.: (home) 401 453-3027
(office) 401 874-4659
Fax: 401 874-2580
Internet: [log in to unmask]
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 14:20:14 -0800
Reply-To: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Safdie Joseph <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: FW: Post Postmodernism
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
(I've taken the liberty of copying Robert Kibler's attachment as some of
you seem to have had trouble getting it -- it's worth the large screen
space, it seems to me, but apologies to those who may be paying by the
word, as it were).
Joe Safdie
> ___________________________________________
>
>
> Geraldo, Eat Your Avant-Pop Heart Out
>
> By MARK LEYNER
>
> HOBOKEN, N.J. -- JENNY JONES: Boy, we have a show for you today!
>
> Recently, the University of Virginia philosopher Richard Rorty made
> the
> stunning declaration that nobody has "the foggiest idea" what
> postmodernism means. "It would be nice to get rid of it," he said.
> "It
> isn't exactly an idea; it's a word that pretends to stand for an
> idea."
>
> This shocking admission that there is no such thing as postmodernism
> has
> produced a firestorm of protest around the country. Thousands of
> authors,
> critics and graduate students who'd considered themselves
> postmodernists
> are outraged at the betrayal.
>
> Today we have with us a writer -- a recovering postmodernist -- who
> believes that his literary career and personal life have been
> irreparably
> damaged by the theory, and who feels defrauded by the academics who
> promulgated it. He wishes to remain anonymous, so we'll call him
> "Alex."
>
> Alex, as an adolescent, before you began experimenting with
> postmodernism, you considered yourself -- what?
>
> Close shot of ALEX.
>
> An electronic blob obscures his face. Words appear at bottom of
> screen:
> "Says he was traumatized by postmodernism and blames academics."
>
> ALEX (his voice electronically altered): A high modernist. Y'know,
> Pound,
> Eliot, Georges Braque, Wallace Stevens, Arnold Schoenberg, Mies van
> der
> Rohe. I had all of Schoenberg's 78's.
>
> JENNY JONES: And then you started reading people like Jean-Francois
> Lyotard and Jean Baudrillard -- how did that change your feelings
> about
> your modernist heroes?
>
> ALEX: I suddenly felt that they were, like, stifling and canonical.
>
> JENNY JONES: Stifling and canonical? That is so sad, such a waste.
> How
> old were you when you first read Fredric Jameson?
>
> ALEX: Nine, I think.
>
> The AUDIENCE gasps.
>
> JENNY JONES: We have some pictures of young Alex....
>
> We see snapshots of 14-year-old ALEX reading Gilles Deleuze and Felix
> Guattari's "Anti-Oedipus: Capitalism and Schizophrenia." The AUDIENCE
> oohs and ahs.
>
> ALEX: We used to go to a friend's house after school -- y'know, his
> parents were never home -- and we'd read, like, Paul Virilio and
> Julia
> Kristeva.
>
> JENNY JONES: So you're only 14, and you're already skeptical toward
> the
> "grand narratives" of modernity, you're questioning any belief system
> that claims universality or transcendence. Why?
>
> ALEX: I guess -- to be cool.
>
> JENNY JONES: So, peer pressure?
>
> ALEX: I guess.
>
> JENNY JONES: And do you remember how you felt the very first time you
> entertained the notion that you and your universe are constituted by
> language -- that reality is a cultural construct, a "text" whose
> meaning
> is determined by infinite associations with other "texts"?
>
> ALEX: Uh, it felt, like, good. I wanted to do it again. The AUDIENCE
> groans.
>
> JENNY JONES: You were arrested at about this time?
>
> ALEX: For spray-painting "The Hermeneutics of Indeterminacy" on an
> overpass.
>
> JENNY JONES: You're the child of a mixed marriage -- is that right?
>
> ALEX: My father was a de Stijl Wittgensteinian and my mom was a
> neo-pre-Raphaelite.
>
> JENNY JONES: Do you think that growing up in a mixed marriage made
> you
> more vulnerable to the siren song of postmodernism?
>
> ALEX: Absolutely. It's hard when you're a little kid not to be able
> to
> just come right out and say (sniffles), y'know, I'm an Imagist or I'm
> a
> phenomenologist or I'm a post-painterly abstractionist. It's really
> hard
> -- especially around the holidays. (He cries.)
>
> JENNY JONES: I hear you. Was your wife a postmodernist?
>
> ALEX: Yes. She was raised avant-pop, which is a fundamentalist
> offshoot
> of postmodernism.
>
> JENNY JONES: How did she react to Rorty's admission that
> postmodernism
> was essentially a hoax?
>
> ALEX: She was devastated. I mean, she's got all the John Zorn albums
> and
> the entire Semiotext(e) series. She was crushed.
>
> We see ALEX'S WIFE in the audience, weeping softly, her hands
> covering
> her face.
>
> JENNY JONES: And you were raising your daughter as a postmodernist?
>
> ALEX: Of course. That's what makes this particularly tragic. I mean,
> how
> do you explain to a 5-year-old that self-consciously recycling
> cultural
> detritus is suddenly no longer a valid art form when, for her entire
> life, she's been taught that it is?
>
> JENNY JONES: Tell us how you think postmodernism affected your career
> as
> a novelist.
>
> ALEX: I disavowed writing that contained real ideas or any real
> passion.
> My work became disjunctive, facetious and nihilistic. It was all
> blank
> parody, irony enveloped in more irony.
>
> It merely recapitulated the pernicious banality of television and
> advertising. I found myself indiscriminately incorporating any and
> all
> kinds of pop kitsch and shlock. (He begins to weep again.)
>
> JENNY JONES: And this spilled over into your personal life?
>
> ALEX: It was impossible for me to experience life with any emotional
> intensity. I couldn't control the irony anymore. I perceived my own
> feelings as if they were in quotes.
>
> I italicized everything and everyone. It became impossible for me to
> appraise the quality of anything. To me everything was equivalent --
> the
> Brandenburg Concertos and the Lysol jingle had the same value. ...
> (He
> breaks down, sobbing.)
>
> JENNY JONES: Now, you're involved in a lawsuit, aren't you?
>
> ALEX: Yes. I'm suing the Modern Language Association.
>
> JENNY JONES: How confident are you about winning?
>
> ALEX: We need to prove that, while they were actively propounding it,
> academics knew all along that postmodernism was a specious theory.
>
> If we can unearth some intradepartmental memos -- y'know, a paper
> trail
> -- any corroboration that they knew postmodernism was worthless cant
> at
> the same time they were teaching it, then I think we have an
> excellent
> shot at establishing liability.
>
> JENNY JONES wades into audience and proffers microphone to a woman.
>
> WOMAN (with lateral head-bobbing): It's ironic that Barry Scheck is
> representing the M.L.A. in this litigation because Scheck is the
> postmodern attorney par excellence. This is the guy who's made a
> career
> of volatilizing truth in the simulacrum of exculpation!
>
> VOICE FROM AUDIENCE: You go, girl!
>
> WOMAN: Scheck is the guy who came up with the quintessentially
> postmodern
> re-bleed defense for O.J., which claims that O.J. merely vigorously
> shook
> Ron and Nicole, thereby re-aggravating pre-existing knife wounds. I'd
> just like to say to any client of Barry Scheck -- lose that zero and
> get
> a hero!
>
> The AUDIENCE cheers wildly.
>
> WOMAN: Uh, I forgot my question.
>
> Dissolve to message on screen: If you believe that mathematician
> Andrew
> Wiles' proof of Fermat's last theorem has caused you or a member of
> your
> family to dress too provocatively, call (800) 555-9455.
>
> Dissolve back to studio.In the audience, JENNY JONES extends the
> microphone to a man in his mid-30's with a scruffy beard and a
> bandana
> around his head.
>
> MAN WITH BANDANA: I'd like to say that this "Alex" is the single
> worst
> example of pointless irony in American literature, and this whole
> heartfelt renunciation of postmodernism is a ploy -- it's just more
> irony.
>
> The AUDIENCE whistles and hoots.
>
> ALEX: You think this is a ploy?! (He tears futilely at the electronic
> blob.) This is my face!
>
> The AUDIENCE recoils in horror.
>
>
>
> ALEX: This is what can happen to people who naively embrace
> postmodernism, to people who believe that the individual -- the
> autonomous, individualist subject -- is dead. They become a
> palimpsest of
> media pastiche -- a mask of metastatic irony.
>
> JENNY JONES (biting lip and shaking her head): That is so sad. Alex
> --
> final words?
>
> ALEX: I'd just like to say that self-consciousness and irony seem
> like
> fun at first, but they can destroy your life. I know. You gotta be
> earnest, be real. Real feelings are important. Objective reality does
> exist. AUDIENCE members whoop, stomp and pump fists in the air.
>
> JENNY JONES: I'd like to thank Alex for having the courage to come on
> today and share his experience with us.
>
> Join us for tomorrow's show, "The End of Manichean, Bipolar
> Geopolitics
> Turned My Boyfriend Into an Insatiable Sex Freak (and I Love It!)."
>
>
> --
> Cynthia Virtue, Manager, Sales Operations 650-919-6239
> Network Computing Devices, Mountain View, CA [log in to unmask]
> ====================================================================
> It was once thought that lobsters were scavengers and ate primarily
> dead things. However, researchers have discovered that lobsters catch
> mainly fresh food (except for bait) which includes crabs, clams,
> mussels, starfish, sea urchins, and sometimes even other lobsters!
>
>
> ..=-=-=-=-=-=-= t h e = g i g g l e s = m a i l i n g = l i s t
> =-=-=-=-=-=-=.
> |
> |
> | This humourous interlude has been brought to you courtesy of the
> giggles |
> | mailing list, but its content is the sole reponsibility of its
> submitter. |
> |
> |
> | For information on how to subscribe/unsubscribe, send e-mail to
> |
> | [log in to unmask] with the following line in the body of the
> message: |
> |
> |
> | info giggles
> |
> |
> |
> ..=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- E n j o y ! = 8^D
> -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=.
>
>
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 08:56:46 +0800
Reply-To: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Richard Read <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: I hope thos humorous look at postmodernism gets to you
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Greg Downing wrote:
>Was the joke that it was computer code -- hence, unreadable?
>
>(":#9""8P3d,P4B9!"849K869G*53#3"#B@!*!%F#%0#L"(CA*KE'4[,#"&BA3J@@p" etc.)
>
>Anyway, that's what I and maybe others got in our inboxes....
Same here,
Richard Read.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dr Richard Read Email [log in to unmask]
Dept of Fine Arts
The University of Western Australia
Nedlands WA 6009 Tel +61 8 9380 2140
Australia Fax 8 9380 1082
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 22:27:57 -0500
Reply-To: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Patricia Cockram <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Purchasing EP's Birthplace
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Okay, Okay, I'll consider sending 'em some money. I just saw Mary today,
and she told me she likes the idea, though she worries that they won't do it
right and was not happy that the amount of money she pledged turns out to be
such a small percentage of what they need (why *do* they need so much
money?). She said she thought her contribution would be half of what they
should need and that she could certainly restore a house for less than that.
She also told me that Laughlin (who was cheap but had pretty good instincts)
thought it was a terrible idea.
I have to say that I don't find their approach encouraging. Have they tried
to get grant money? Do they really know what they are doing? Does anyone
know what their plans are?
I'm not adverse to helping keep Pound's work and memory alive, but I think
we must make sure we are not helping someone bury him under the sort of
commercial detritus he abhorred.
Patricia
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 22:28:00 -0500
Reply-To: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Patricia Cockram <[log in to unmask]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Poundian here!
Thanks for the call for the ALA. Do you know which day(s) the Pound Society
panels will be?
I would love to propose a paper on Pound and hypertext. I presented my
electronic edition of the Italian Cantos last summer in Brunnenburg, and
Mary de Rachewiltz has just recorded the Italian text for inclusion in it.
Ned Bates, another Pound scholar who was at Brunnenburg last summer, is
doing a hypertext of part of the Pisan Cantos and also has a theoretical
paper that accompanies it -- as do I (I have an article in the current
Paideuma -- the one with your excellent piece on the poetry wars -- on the
subject). I'm not sure he would want to do it, but I could ask him if you
think the subject is worthy.
The reason I ask about the days of the sessions is that I am finishing my
dissertation (when not checking my email) and will graduate this spring.
Our graduation ceremony is May 29th.
Best regards,
Patricia Cockram
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 22:28:30 -0500
Reply-To: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Patricia Cockram <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: I hope thos humorous look at postmodernism gets to you
Comments: To: Robert E Kibler <[log in to unmask]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Very good, Robert!
Thanks,
Patricia
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 23:04:28 -0500
Reply-To: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Daniel Pearlman <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Purchasing EP's Birthplace
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
I don't see what all the hurry is to lay down a
sum of money two-three times what the house is
worth on the *real* market. Is there anyone
*competing* to buy it for near that amount? I
wonder if the Idaho Pound group is inflating
the price in order to get what they really
need or in the hope of getting extra money to
be used for renovations, or ...
Dan ex-Idaho Pearlman, saying, I wouldn't
get too ex-Idahed over all this.
At 10:27 PM 1/14/98 -0500, you wrote:
>Okay, Okay, I'll consider sending 'em some money. ...
>I have to say that I don't find their approach encouraging. Have they tried
>to get grant money? Do they really know what they are doing? Does anyone
>know what their plans are?
>
>I'm not adverse to helping keep Pound's work and memory alive, but I think
>we must make sure we are not helping someone bury him under the sort of
>commercial detritus he abhorred.
>
>Patricia
>
Dan Pearlman
Department of English
University of Rhode Island
Kingston, RI 02881
[Latest book: novel, BLACK FLAMES, White Pine Press, 1997]
Tel.: (home) 401 453-3027
(office) 401 874-4659
Fax: 401 874-2580
Internet: [log in to unmask]
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 23:14:24 -0500
Reply-To: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Gregory {Greg} Downing <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Purchasing EP's Birthplace
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 11:04 PM 1/14/98 -0500, you wrote:
>I don't see what all the hurry is to lay down a
>sum of money two-three times what the house is
>worth on the *real* market. Is there anyone
>*competing* to buy it for near that amount? I
>wonder if the Idaho Pound group is inflating
>the price in order to get what they really
>need or in the hope of getting extra money to
>be used for renovations, or ...
>
>Dan ex-Idaho Pearlman, saying, I wouldn't
>get too ex-Idahed over all this.
>
Does the property go on the open market after the window closes for buying
it at the court-set price? (And *is* the price under discussion a court-set
price?) If so, why not make an offer that is closer to fair market value
right after the window closes, and ratchet up if necessary? Are people lined
up for the house?
Greg Downing/NYU, at [log in to unmask] or [log in to unmask]
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 10:15:46 -0500
Reply-To: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Burt Hatlen <[log in to unmask]>
Organization: University of Maine
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Thanks for your interest. The Pound panels will be on Thursday and
Friday, May 28 and 29.
Burt Hatlen
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 09:35:29 PST
Reply-To: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Ellen Stauder <[log in to unmask]>
Burt,
Thanks for calling me. When I saw your email, my interest was definitely
peaked and your call put the matter to the front of my mind and desires. I'll
think of something in the next couple of days, try to imagine how I can
possibly write it, and then let you know. It may be best not to contemplate
how to write it or I'll get cold feet, given my other obligations. So I'll
think of a topic and a title and send it. It was great to talk to you
yesterday. Hope your writing goes very well this semester. I look forward
very much to reading the first installment. Ellen
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 13:24:32 -0700
Reply-To: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
From: hugh hazen witemeyer <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Purchasing EP's Birthplace
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Dear People,
A simple call to Jennifer Wilson would answer most of your questions
about the EP Association's plans for the property. It is my understanding
that the figure of $255,000 for the house and land was determined by an
assessor appointed by the court in which the property is being probated.
No one who has kept an eye on property values in the scenic parts of the
Rocky Mountains in recent years should be frightfully suprised by the
figure, I submit.
About a year ago I visited the birthplace of Katherine Mansfield in
Wellington, New Zealand. She didn't live there long, but the local
Mansfield association has made a very nice museum of her life and works
there. A lot of people who know little about Mansfield visit the house
every year and come away with enhanced knowledge of and interest in her
art. Would it not be worthwhile to do something of the sort with EP's
birthplace?
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 09:19:48 +1200
Reply-To: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Scott Eastham <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Dec. 31
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Dear Sylvester:
I'm trying to get OFF the EP/ discussion mailing list, which was fun for a
while but is now cluttering me up.
Problem is, the server here in New Zealand won't send the automated command
required to shut it off: [log in to unmask]
Could you possibly send the machine my cancellation?
Thanks, and cheers for the New Year.
Scott
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 21:02:13 -0500
Reply-To: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Susan Wheeler <[log in to unmask]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Burt, who/what 's the best source for ALA information?
Thanks in advance --
At 02:37 PM 1/14/98 -0500, you wrote:
>Calling all Poundians!
>
>The Pound Society is eligible to present two panels at the American
>Literature Association convention in San Diego, May 28-31, 1998 (that's
>Thursday through Sunday). One of our panels this year will be devoted
>to "Teaching Modernist Poetry," organized by Jewel Spears Brooker. But
>at this point we have only the one panel. I am, very belatedly, trying
>to put together a second panel, and at this point I have two open slots
>for papers. Is anyone out there interested? The topic at this point is
>open--that is, I would be happy to consider any Pound-related
>presentation. But we have to make this happen fast--the program
>deadline is January 30. So please e-mail me immediately if you are
>interested.
>
>The ALA is a very loosely organized group that meets in pleasant
>settings--in this case a beach-front hotel in San Diego. Some of us
>have been working for several years at building a Modernist presence at
>the conference, and this year as in previous years there will be, I
>think, panels organized by the Williams, H.D., Eliot, Stevens,
>Cummings, etc., societies, along with the Pound Society panel(s). I
>esecially invite people on the west coast to think about submitting
>proposals.
>
>Burt Hatlen
>
>
Susan Wheeler
[log in to unmask]
voice/fax (212) 254-3984
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 00:30:37 -0500
Reply-To: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Tom Orange <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: social credit
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Could anyone direct me to a good explanation, or post here a short
explanation, of the theory of social credit, including where/how Pound
deviates from Douglas? I'm afraid I gave it a try with a friend of mine
today and by the time I was done I had blundered my way into making it
sound more like communism than anything else.
Much thanks,
Tom
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 06:45:28 -0600
Reply-To: [log in to unmask]
Sender: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "John K. Taber" <[log in to unmask]>
Organization: none
Subject: Re: social credit
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Tom Orange wrote:
>
> Could anyone direct me to a good explanation, or post here a short
> explanation, of the theory of social credit, including where/how Pound
> deviates from Douglas? I'm afraid I gave it a try with a friend of mine
> today and by the time I was done I had blundered my way into making it
> sound more like communism than anything else.
>
> Much thanks,
> Tom
Damn! I deleted it. There is a web site in Australia devoted to
Social Credit. Do a search in Alta Vista.
IMHO, the difference between Communism and Social Credit is that
the latter preserves Capitalism by shifting the blame for its
failings from Capitalism itself to Banking. It blames the part
for the failing of the whole.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 08:37:00 -0500
Reply-To: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Burt Hatlen <[log in to unmask]>
Organization: University of Maine
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
The ALA maintains a Website: http://english.byu.edu/cronin/ala.htm
Burt
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 11:01:05 -0500
Reply-To: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Leon Surette <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: social credit
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 12:30 AM 16/01/98 -0500, you wrote:
>Could anyone direct me to a good explanation, or post here a short
>explanation, of the theory of social credit, including where/how Pound
>deviates from Douglas? I'm afraid I gave it a try with a friend of mine
>today and by the time I was done I had blundered my way into making it
>sound more like communism than anything else.
>
>Much thanks,
>Tom
>
By and large I still stand by the section, "Pound, Douglas, and J. M. Keynes
in A LIGHT FROM ELEUSIS.
I have written a new book on the subject, but it is still being
assessed.
Leon Surette
Leon Surette Home: 519-681-7787
Dept. of English Fax: 519-661-3776
The University of Western Ontario Email: [log in to unmask]
London, Ontario
N6A 3K7
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 22:47:11 -0600
Reply-To: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Joe Ahearn <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: social credit
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
I'd recommend Tim Redman's explanation in _Ezra Pound and Italian Fascism_
(Oxford). His explanation of SC and its influence on Pound is very useful.
Best,
Joe Ahearn
Rancho Loco Press
Dallas
At 12:30 AM 1/16/98 -0500, you wrote:
>Could anyone direct me to a good explanation, or post here a short
>explanation, of the theory of social credit, including where/how Pound
>deviates from Douglas? I'm afraid I gave it a try with a friend of mine
>today and by the time I was done I had blundered my way into making it
>sound more like communism than anything else.
>
>Much thanks,
>Tom
>
>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 14:21:45 EST
Reply-To: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Sylvester Pollet <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Dec. 31
Hey, Scott! I'm at a friends house in Bangor to take a shower & see my e-mail.
Huge icestorms in Maine have destroyed the powerlines, around 300,000 houses
w/o power. My house, no power no phone, and today is the tenth day!
I don't have the list info here. Listserv is the address, not the command, but
I don't have the whole thing here. I'll try to send it Monday or Tuesday. Try
that, & if that does'nt work, e-mail Burt Hatlen, who is back as director and
is keeper of the list stuff anyway. p.s. I just sent you some new broadsides
in my series, to your home address.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 13:36:42 GMT
Reply-To: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Sarah Graham <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Pound biographies
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Forgive me if this is a FAQ, but I'd like the opinions of Pound scholars on
the relative merits of the various Pound biographies - Carpenter, Stock,
Tytell, Ackroyd, Norman - briefly, of course!
Also, are there any new biographies in preparation?
Thanks, Sarah.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 08:26:41 -0500
Reply-To: Robert E Kibler <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "Robert E. Kibler" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Pound biographies
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
On Mon, 19 Jan 1998 13:36:42 GMT wrote...
>
Tim Redmond is doing a new one as we write, according to a discussion on just
this subject a couple of months ago. Lots of people have favorite bios, and in
the exchange of a few months past, they pointed out the strengths and
weaknesses of all of them. I fancy Carpenter's book--maybe because it is the
one that I have made the most use of when researching basic information on
Pound. It is loaded.
Forgive me if this is a FAQ, but I'd like the opinions of Pound scholars on
>the relative merits of the various Pound biographies - Carpenter, Stock,
>Tytell, Ackroyd, Norman - briefly, of course!
>Also, are there any new biographies in preparation?
>Thanks, Sarah.
>
>
Robert E. Kibler
Department of English
University of Minnesota
[log in to unmask]
fortunatus et ille, deos qui novit agrestis,
Panaque Silvanumque senem Nymphasque sorores.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 14:00:31 -0500
Reply-To: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Patricia Cockram <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Pound biographies
Comments: To: Robert E Kibler <[log in to unmask]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
I agree with Robert Kibler. (I'm sure the Redmond biography will be the best
of the lot.) I like the Stock, but the Carpenter is full of information and
discusses the aesthetics more thoroughly than the others. The Ackroyd has
wonderful pictures, some of which I've never seen elsewhere, but his facts
are not that reliable.
Best regards,
Patricia
At 08:26 AM 1/20/98 -0500, Robert E. Kibler wrote:
>On Mon, 19 Jan 1998 13:36:42 GMT wrote...
>>
>
>Tim Redmond is doing a new one as we write, according to a discussion on just
>this subject a couple of months ago. Lots of people have favorite bios, and in
>the exchange of a few months past, they pointed out the strengths and
>weaknesses of all of them. I fancy Carpenter's book--maybe because it is the
>one that I have made the most use of when researching basic information on
>Pound. It is loaded.
>
>Forgive me if this is a FAQ, but I'd like the opinions of Pound scholars on
>>the relative merits of the various Pound biographies - Carpenter, Stock,
>>Tytell, Ackroyd, Norman - briefly, of course!
>>Also, are there any new biographies in preparation?
>>Thanks, Sarah.
>>
>>
>
>Robert E. Kibler
>Department of English
>University of Minnesota
>[log in to unmask]
>
> fortunatus et ille, deos qui novit agrestis,
> Panaque Silvanumque senem Nymphasque sorores.
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 13:45:20 -0600
Reply-To: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
From: William Barry Ahearn <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: biographies
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Let me put in a good word for James Wilhelm's three volumes on EP.
Unfortunately one has to deal with three indexes rather than one (Carpenter).
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 17:08:59 -0500
Reply-To: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Cameron McWhirter <[log in to unmask]>
Organization: The Cincinnati Enquirer
Subject: Re: Pound biographies
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
The biography question opens up a can of worms, doesn't it? I think a lot
of people on this listserv are holding back from responding because of
the sheer weight of the issue. Carpenter is by far the most thorough, and
yet Poundaholics seem to relish in pointing out the obvious gaps and
errors. I know I do.
Pound lived an incredible series of lives. There were few periods of
inactivity -- from his days at UPenn until his death. His published work;
his wide range of journalism; his voluminous correspondence (from
A(ntheil) to Z(ukofsky)); the places that he lived (Venice, London,
Paris, Rapallo, St. Elizabeths); the times in which he lived (teens, WWI,
WWII, etc.)-- all of it ultimately must confound any biographer looking
to present EP in one volume. He was too vast; hence the Pound industry.
one person's opinion.
Cameron McWhirter
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 00:24:00 +0100
Reply-To: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Alexander Schmitz <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: re/ EP bios
re/ existing EP bio's
================
it's easy:
never mention Tytell again.
- CARPENTER is great
[altho Will. Cookson of AGENDA/London (ed of SP) chose ANOTHER reviewer when it was out -
not cause I'm German, but he said: Geoffrey Hill - acknowleged/great Brit. poet!!] had sd. - and
tthen written - that Carpenter was NO GOOD.
My very personal SALUTE is for JJ Wilhelm [<- and not - again! - cause of this German sounding
last name....!!!): I'm just reading the middle one of his 3 volls ['cause it seems to having been
easier, obviously, to having got the "Roots" and the "Tragic" here than get me the middle one
covering 1908-25.. at last, here it is] ...What I think REALLY great in JJW is the news in the VERY
SMALL details; and he seems to me to be the VERY first to CONNECT bio to work
CONSEQUENTLY in a book you CD/ GIVE OUTSIDERS & they wd at least TOUCH it. Very
simply (as far as I'm entitled to judge: WELL written!]
Parentheisis:
There is so much WASTE-OF-TIME-stuff around. The discussion whether hypertext cd be taken
as a substitute for ideogram etc; the funny [!!!] association between HYPERTEXT & FASCISM
[sorry, Pat - but anyway: May 25 - or what was it? - when you'll be a Dr. phil. - will be a date my PC
REMEMBERS!] - it all SOUNDS good, but it is crap. Sorry. Sorry. VERY sorry: it's intelligents'
people's childs' play. There are no DISCOVERIES, no NEWS about EP, and no "CHINESE" news
anyway.
Still:
JJWilh.: Dante, Arn. Daniel. The Later Cantos [which was, WHEN IT CAME OUT] a great guide for
me, for instance the Byzantium theme etc. And for what's remaining: Peter Stoicheff's great book
[& Ron Bush in Ric Taylor's collection - all here, after all, in - re/ EP -"half savage country"...]
JJW: I dig his STYLE. I do NOT find him in ANY way superficial [as was sd. here & there].
So, re/ EP bio's:
- Chas Norman: Pioneer, just as Hugh K.'s book was back in '49/50
- Stock [but because of personal "warps" in his OWN biography not THAT
dependable...]
- Tytell: a crazy journalist. Forget it IMMEDIATELY!
- Carp/: best
- JJW: the three volls. - TOGETHER with Carp/ the best to date.
best - & SORRY
alex
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 14:00:25 -0800
Reply-To: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
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From: Graeme Wood <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: EP bios
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Hello folks,
I'd like to hear what people have to say about Eustace Mullins' Pound
bio/hagiography "This Difficult Individual" (1961). Carpenter mentions it
briefly ("Ezra raised no objections when Mullins wrote a biography of him"
- p. 801), but I've never seen a copy nor heard a review.
Graeme Wood
Deep Springs College
Dyer, Nevada 89010
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 10:47:50 -0500
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<[log in to unmask]>
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From: Timothy P Redman <[log in to unmask]>
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Thanks for the advance notice given about my Pound biography. I
would only like to point out that my name is Redman, not Redmond,
which is more common.
Tim Redman
School of Arts and Humanities, JO 31
University of Texas at Dallas
P.O. Box 830688
Richardson, TX 75083-0688
(972) 883-2775 (o)
(972) 883-2989 (fax)
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 16:24:25 -0500
Reply-To: Robert E Kibler <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
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From: "Robert E. Kibler" <[log in to unmask]>
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On Thu, 22 Jan 1998 10:47:50 -0500 wrote...
>
oops
Thanks for the advance notice given about my Pound biography. I
>would only like to point out that my name is Redman, not Redmond,
>which is more common.
>
>Tim Redman
>School of Arts and Humanities, JO 31
>University of Texas at Dallas
>P.O. Box 830688
>Richardson, TX 75083-0688
>
>(972) 883-2775 (o)
>(972) 883-2989 (fax)
>
>
Robert E. Kibler
Department of English
University of Minnesota
[log in to unmask]
fortunatus et ille, deos qui novit agrestis,
Panaque Silvanumque senem Nymphasque sorores.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 22:11:20 -0600
Reply-To: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
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From: Joe Ahearn <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Ovid and Paradiso translations?
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Can someone recommend translations of the Paradiso and the Metamorphoses?
Many thanks,
Joe Ahearn
Rancho Loco Press
Dallas
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 23:43:44 -0500
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From: Gregory {Greg} Downing <[log in to unmask]>
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At 10:11 PM 1/22/98 -0600, you wrote:
>Can someone recommend translations of the Paradiso and the Metamorphoses?
>
There was a discussion of Dante translations on the TS Eliot list in late
December. If you saw what I said there, don't re-read the Dante part of
this; I just cut-and-pasted it for this query. Others may want to add or
change what I toss out below, of course.
For the Div Comm or Metamorphoses or any frequently translated text, the
choices to be made really depend on what one is looking for, and one is
after all free to use more than one translation for different purposes....
DANTE:
Ciardi is poetic, and has the great advantage of being dedicated to
Archibald MacLeish. (Couldn't resist the quip.) Those interested in the
Italian version or annotations will (also or instead) have to turn
elsewhere; there's no Italian text in Ciardi, and the annotations are quite
concise.
Singleton's three-vol. version is in prose, but has Italian on facing pages,
and fine, extensive annotations, as mentioned above. For people wanting a
detailed sense of what Dante is getting at, which may be crucial for points
of Eliot exegesis, Singleton might be the best, despite prosaic translation
-- though prose in fact tends to permit a more literal version of the
meanings of the original's words and phrases than verse, where meter and
rhyme in English are large considerations.
Mandelbaum (3 vol, paperback) is in verse, has Italian on facing pages, and
tries to stick to the word-order of the Italian a lot, but the annotations
are quite thin. I use it in class when I have to teach the DC every couple
of years, because it's cheap, and has the Italian -- which I think is good
to refer to in class from time to time, since Dante wrote it in Italian (I
mean 14C florentine dialect), according to what I'm told. (Sorry, a second
quip.)
I have to mention John Sinclair's (3 vol, ppbk) version, since it was what I
used the first time I read the DC all the way through in a first-year
undergrad great-books course; it's in prose, with Italian text, and has some
annotations and a prose discussion of each canto.
Pinsky's translation has been out for maybe three years; it's in a slightly
fudged modification of terza rima, but I haven't seen it yet, though I've
seen it reviewed, which is even better. (Final quip; bad things come in
threes -- Dante's triadically-obsessed spirit is obviosuly making me do
this.) The reviews I've seen have been quite positive.
OVID _MET._:
Two nonrhymed verse translations I've seen a lot, both first published in
the 1950's, are Rolfe Humphries, and Horace Gregory. Both have indexes.
Humphries has blurbs by John Crowe Ransom and Mark van Doren; Gregory has
blurbs by Robert Lowell and Robinson Jeffers. Duelling blurbs, apparently.
Of course the Loeb Classical Library version has the Latin on facing pages
if you find that useful and are not worried about pedestrian prose
translation.... I have a couple more English versions, but they are at the
office not at home....
Greg Downing/NYU, at [log in to unmask] or [log in to unmask]
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 08:07:36 -0500
Reply-To: Robert E Kibler <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
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From: "Robert E. Kibler" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Ovid and Paradiso translations?
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On Thu, 22 Jan 1998 22:11:20 -0600 wrote...
>Can someone recommend translations of the Paradiso and the Metamorphoses?
>
Robert Pinskky has a great new translation of the Inferno (I know you want
Paradiso) out two years now, and in Italian departments people still consider
the Mandelbaum translation, done in the 80s, to be the best thing since sliced
bread.
I still think Rolphe Humphries translation of Metamorphoses, done in the
fifties, is as good as any more recent version.
>Many thanks,
>Joe Ahearn
>Rancho Loco Press
>Dallas
>
>
>
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>
>
>
Robert E. Kibler
Department of English
University of Minnesota
[log in to unmask]
fortunatus et ille, deos qui novit agrestis,
Panaque Silvanumque senem Nymphasque sorores.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 08:10:39 -0500
Reply-To: Robert E Kibler <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "Robert E. Kibler" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Ovid and Paradiso translations?
MIME-Version: 1.0
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At 10:11 PM 1/22/98 -0600, you wrote:
>Can someone recommend translations of the Paradiso and the Metamorphoses?
>
I would agree with this--read Mandelbaum, but Sinclair's prose translation has
the best notes, canto by canto. Very important notes.
Mandelbaum (3 vol, paperback) is in verse, has Italian on facing pages, and
tries to stick to the word-order of the Italian a lot, but the annotations
are quite thin. I use it in class when I have to teach the DC every couple
of years, because it's cheap, and has the Italian -- which I think is good
to refer to in class from time to time, since Dante wrote it in Italian (I
mean 14C florentine dialect), according to what I'm told. (Sorry, a second
quip.)
I have to mention John Sinclair's (3 vol, ppbk) version, since it was what I
used the first time I read the DC all the way through in a first-year
undergrad great-books course; it's in prose, with Italian text, and has some
annotations and a prose discussion of each canto.
Pinsky's translation has been out for maybe three years; it's in a slightly
fudged modification of terza rima, but I haven't seen it yet, though I've
seen it reviewed, which is even better. (Final quip; bad things come in
threes -- Dante's triadically-obsessed spirit is obviosuly making me do
this.) The reviews I've seen have been quite positive.
OVID _MET._:
Two nonrhymed verse translations I've seen a lot, both first published in
the 1950's, are Rolfe Humphries, and Horace Gregory. Both have indexes.
Humphries has blurbs by John Crowe Ransom and Mark van Doren; Gregory has
blurbs by Robert Lowell and Robinson Jeffers. Duelling blurbs, apparently.
Of course the Loeb Classical Library version has the Latin on facing pages
if you find that useful and are not worried about pedestrian prose
translation.... I have a couple more English versions, but they are at the
office not at home....
Greg Downing/NYU, at [log in to unmask] or [log in to unmask]
Robert E. Kibler
Department of English
University of Minnesota
[log in to unmask]
fortunatus et ille, deos qui novit agrestis,
Panaque Silvanumque senem Nymphasque sorores.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 11:20:02 -0500
Reply-To: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
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From: "s.j. adams" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Ovid and Paradiso translations?
Comments: To: "Robert E. Kibler" <[log in to unmask]>
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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On Dante, I'm surprised no one has mentioned the excellent notes in the
Penguin translation by Dorothy Sayers (yes, the Lord Peter Whimsy woman).
Her translation is rather stiff, but the notes are very informative.
Still, I'm a fan of Ciardi--he reads very well aloud--especially for a
first-time reader.
Stephen Adams
[log in to unmask]
University of Western Ontario
London, Canada
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 13:02:15 -0500
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From: Willard Goodwin <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Ovid and Paradiso translations?
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And not yet mentioned of _Divine Comedy_ translations are Mark Musa's
(Indiana UP) and C.H. Sisson's (Carcanet New Press). Both of these, along
with Singleton and Mandelbaum, are treated by Hugh Kenner, in "Going To
Hell: Dante's English Muse," _Harper's_ (June 1981), pp. 69-71, and
collected in Kenner's _Historical Fictions_. Of _Metamorphoses_ I believe
there is a new translation by Ted Hughes. And a few years ago there
appeared an omnium gatherum of contemporary poets' translations of much of
_Metamorphoses_, called _After Ovid_.
--Will G.
>At 10:11 PM 1/22/98 -0600, you wrote:
>>Can someone recommend translations of the Paradiso and the Metamorphoses?
>>
>
>There was a discussion of Dante translations on the TS Eliot list in late
>December. If you saw what I said there, don't re-read the Dante part of
>this; I just cut-and-pasted it for this query. Others may want to add or
>change what I toss out below, of course.
>
>For the Div Comm or Metamorphoses or any frequently translated text, the
>choices to be made really depend on what one is looking for, and one is
>after all free to use more than one translation for different purposes....
>
>DANTE:
>
>Ciardi is poetic, and has the great advantage of being dedicated to
>Archibald MacLeish. (Couldn't resist the quip.) Those interested in the
>Italian version or annotations will (also or instead) have to turn
>elsewhere; there's no Italian text in Ciardi, and the annotations are quite
>concise.
>
>Singleton's three-vol. version is in prose, but has Italian on facing pages,
>and fine, extensive annotations, as mentioned above. For people wanting a
>detailed sense of what Dante is getting at, which may be crucial for points
>of Eliot exegesis, Singleton might be the best, despite prosaic translation
>-- though prose in fact tends to permit a more literal version of the
>meanings of the original's words and phrases than verse, where meter and
>rhyme in English are large considerations.
>
>Mandelbaum (3 vol, paperback) is in verse, has Italian on facing pages, and
>tries to stick to the word-order of the Italian a lot, but the annotations
>are quite thin. I use it in class when I have to teach the DC every couple
>of years, because it's cheap, and has the Italian -- which I think is good
>to refer to in class from time to time, since Dante wrote it in Italian (I
>mean 14C florentine dialect), according to what I'm told. (Sorry, a second
>quip.)
>
>I have to mention John Sinclair's (3 vol, ppbk) version, since it was what I
>used the first time I read the DC all the way through in a first-year
>undergrad great-books course; it's in prose, with Italian text, and has some
>annotations and a prose discussion of each canto.
>
>Pinsky's translation has been out for maybe three years; it's in a slightly
>fudged modification of terza rima, but I haven't seen it yet, though I've
>seen it reviewed, which is even better. (Final quip; bad things come in
>threes -- Dante's triadically-obsessed spirit is obviosuly making me do
>this.) The reviews I've seen have been quite positive.
>
>
>OVID _MET._:
>
>Two nonrhymed verse translations I've seen a lot, both first published in
>the 1950's, are Rolfe Humphries, and Horace Gregory. Both have indexes.
>Humphries has blurbs by John Crowe Ransom and Mark van Doren; Gregory has
>blurbs by Robert Lowell and Robinson Jeffers. Duelling blurbs, apparently.
>Of course the Loeb Classical Library version has the Latin on facing pages
>if you find that useful and are not worried about pedestrian prose
>translation.... I have a couple more English versions, but they are at the
>office not at home....
>
>Greg Downing/NYU, at [log in to unmask] or [log in to unmask]
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 12:21:31 -0500
Reply-To: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
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From: Timothy P Redman <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Ovid and Paradiso translations?
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Well, a Poundian would recommend the Golding translation of Ovid.
As I said to the Eliot list last year: Singleton for the wonderful
notes and a useful trot, Mandlebaum for the poetry.
On Thu, 22 Jan 1998 22:11:20 -0600 Joe Ahearn
<[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> Can someone recommend translations of the Paradiso and the Metamorphoses?
>
> Many thanks,
> Joe Ahearn
> Rancho Loco Press
> Dallas
>
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>
>
Tim Redman
School of Arts and Humanities, JO 31
University of Texas at Dallas
P.O. Box 830688
Richardson, TX 75083-0688
(972) 883-2775 (o)
(972) 883-2989 (fax)
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 12:17:49 -0800
Reply-To: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
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From: Harold Rhenisch <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Ovid and Paradiso translations?
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Well, Pound preferred Arthur Golding's Ovid, and it's worth a look
just for that.
Of shapes transformde to bodies straunge, I purpose to entreate,
Ye gods vouchsafe (for you are they ywrought this wondrous feate)
To further is mine enterprise. And from the wrold begunne,
Graunt that my verse may to my time, his course directly runne.
Before the Sea and Lande were made, and Heaven that all doth hide,
In all the worlde one onely face of nature did abide,
Which Chaos hight, a huge rude heape, and nothing else but even
A heavie lump and clottred clod of seedes togither driven,
Of things at strife among themselves, for want of order due.
No sunne as yet with lightsome beames the shapelesse world did view.
No moone in growing did repayre hir hornes with borowed light.
Compare that to Humphries'
My intention is to tell of bodies changed
To different forms; the gods, who made the changes,
will help me --or I hope so-- with a poem
That runs from the world's beginning to our own days.
Before the ocean was, or earth, or heaven,
Nature was all alike, a shapelessness,
Chaos, so-called, all rude and lumpy matter,
Nothing but bulk, inert, in whose confusion
Discordant atoms warred: there was no sun
To light the universe; there was no moon
With slender silver crescents filling slowly...
Of course, Humphries hadn't done his when Pound made his choice.
Golding is musical and leisurely. Humphries speeds along. I don't
think Pound was interested in getting the Latin right, mind you, but
in translating, and in music.
--Harold Rhenisch
[log in to unmask]
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 17:01:16 -0500
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<[log in to unmask]>
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From: "Jonathan P. Gill" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Ovid and Paradiso translations?
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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It may be worth remembering the translation of the Comedy by
Longfellow--the first great American Dante expert, the inventor
of Comparative Literature, and a distant relative of Pound.
Recall that Longfellow was bedtime reading for the young Ezra--though
probably not his Dante.
Jonathan Gill
Columbia University
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 01:10:06 +0200
Reply-To: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
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From: Johan Lif <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: EP bios
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Graeme Wood wrote:
>I'd like to hear what people have to say about Eustace Mullins' Pound
>bio/hagiography "This Difficult Individual" (1961). Carpenter mentions it
>briefly ("Ezra raised no objections when Mullins wrote a biography of him"
>- p. 801), but I've never seen a copy nor heard a review.
If you should find yourself in New York City, as I did a couple of weeks
ago, you can find a copy Mullins' biography at a place called Gotham
Books (I forget the address, but it's said to be one of the most famous
book stores in NYC). It was there when I visited anyway. I know nothing
about the book, apart from what Carpenter says ("[Mullins] called himself
Director of the Aryan League of America and had a letterhead printed with
the slogan 'The Jews are betraying us!!'").
Johan
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 14:52:00 -0500
Reply-To: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "Dr. Ann Smith" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Ovid and Paradiso translations?
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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At 12:17 PM 23/01/98 -0800, you wrote:
>Well, Pound preferred Arthur Golding's Ovid, and it's worth a look
>just for that.
>
>Of shapes transformde to bodies straunge, I purpose to entreate,
>Ye gods vouchsafe (for you are they ywrought this wondrous feate)
>To further is mine enterprise. And from the wrold begunne,
>Graunt that my verse may to my time, his course directly runne.
>Before the Sea and Lande were made, and Heaven that all doth hide,
>In all the worlde one onely face of nature did abide,
>Which Chaos hight, a huge rude heape, and nothing else but even
>A heavie lump and clottred clod of seedes togither driven,
>Of things at strife among themselves, for want of order due.
>No sunne as yet with lightsome beames the shapelesse world did view.
>No moone in growing did repayre hir hornes with borowed light.
>
>Compare that to Humphries'
>
>My intention is to tell of bodies changed
>To different forms; the gods, who made the changes,
>will help me --or I hope so-- with a poem
>That runs from the world's beginning to our own days.
>Before the ocean was, or earth, or heaven,
>Nature was all alike, a shapelessness,
>Chaos, so-called, all rude and lumpy matter,
>Nothing but bulk, inert, in whose confusion
>Discordant atoms warred: there was no sun
>To light the universe; there was no moon
>With slender silver crescents filling slowly...
>
>Of course, Humphries hadn't done his when Pound made his choice.
>Golding is musical and leisurely. Humphries speeds along. I don't
>think Pound was interested in getting the Latin right, mind you, but
>in translating, and in music.
>
>--Harold Rhenisch
>[log in to unmask]
Please remove me from your mailing list.
Thank you
Ann Smith.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 14:55:48 -0500
Reply-To: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "Dr. Ann Smith" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: EP bios
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 01:10 AM 24/01/98 +0200, you wrote:
>Graeme Wood wrote:
>
>>I'd like to hear what people have to say about Eustace Mullins' Pound
>>bio/hagiography "This Difficult Individual" (1961). Carpenter mentions it
>>briefly ("Ezra raised no objections when Mullins wrote a biography of him"
>>- p. 801), but I've never seen a copy nor heard a review.
>
>If you should find yourself in New York City, as I did a couple of weeks
>ago, you can find a copy Mullins' biography at a place called Gotham
>Books (I forget the address, but it's said to be one of the most famous
>book stores in NYC). It was there when I visited anyway. I know nothing
>about the book, apart from what Carpenter says ("[Mullins] called himself
>Director of the Aryan League of America and had a letterhead printed with
>the slogan 'The Jews are betraying us!!'").
>
>
>Johan
Please remove me from your mailing list.
Thank you.
Ann Smith
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 14:58:08 -0500
Reply-To: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "Dr. Ann Smith" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Ovid and Paradiso translations?
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]
bia.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Please remove me from your mailing list.
Thank you.
Ann Smith
At 05:01 PM 23/01/98 -0500, you wrote:
>It may be worth remembering the translation of the Comedy by
>Longfellow--the first great American Dante expert, the inventor
>of Comparative Literature, and a distant relative of Pound.
>Recall that Longfellow was bedtime reading for the young Ezra--though
>probably not his Dante.
>
>Jonathan Gill
>Columbia University
>
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 15:02:15 -0500
Reply-To: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "Dr. Ann Smith" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Ovid and Paradiso translations?
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 12:17 PM 23/01/98 -0800, you wrote:
>Well, Pound preferred Arthur Golding's Ovid, and it's worth a look
>just for that.
>
>Of shapes transformde to bodies straunge, I purpose to entreate,
>Ye gods vouchsafe (for you are they ywrought this wondrous feate)
>To further is mine enterprise. And from the wrold begunne,
>Graunt that my verse may to my time, his course directly runne.
>Before the Sea and Lande were made, and Heaven that all doth hide,
>In all the worlde one onely face of nature did abide,
>Which Chaos hight, a huge rude heape, and nothing else but even
>A heavie lump and clottred clod of seedes togither driven,
>Of things at strife among themselves, for want of order due.
>No sunne as yet with lightsome beames the shapelesse world did view.
>No moone in growing did repayre hir hornes with borowed light.
>
>Compare that to Humphries'
>
>My intention is to tell of bodies changed
>To different forms; the gods, who made the changes,
>will help me --or I hope so-- with a poem
>That runs from the world's beginning to our own days.
>Before the ocean was, or earth, or heaven,
>Nature was all alike, a shapelessness,
Please remove my name from your mailing list.
Thank you.
Ann Smith
>With slender silver crescents filling slowly...
>
>Of course, Humphries hadn't done his when Pound made his choice.
>Golding is musical and leisurely. Humphries speeds along. I don't
>think Pound was interested in getting the Latin right, mind you, but
>in translating, and in music.
>
>--Harold Rhenisch
>[log in to unmask]
>
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 15:17:53 -0500
Reply-To: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
From: sylvester pollet <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: remove thyself
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
to remove yourself from the list send a message to
[log in to unmask]
LEAVE THE SUBJECT LINE BLANK. IN THE BODY OF THE MESSAGE WRITE:
SIGNOFF EPOUND-L
Why is it so difficult for people to keep the instructions they get
when they join the list? Why is it necessary to repeat this info on the
average of once a week?
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 13:31:37 -0700
Reply-To: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
From: hugh hazen witemeyer <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Pound Biographies
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Biographands,
In addition to Tim Redman's, another biography of EP is in the works.
The author is A. David Moody of the University of York in England, and the
publisher will be Basil Blackwell of Oxford. But I don't think it will
appear for a few years yet.
We can look forward to both of these accounts. EP has yet to find a
biographer who is both knowledgeable and sympathetic, but that will not be
true for much longer.
Cheers,
Hugh Witemeyer
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 16:58:40 -0500
Reply-To: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Jonathan Morse <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Netiquette and Pound
In-Reply-To: <l03130300b0effb8916ae@[204.176.40.191]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 03:17 PM 1/24/98 -0500, Sylvester Pollet wrote:
> Why is it so difficult for people to keep the instructions they get
>when they join the list? Why is it necessary to repeat this info on the
>average of once a week?
Answer: because people are human and fallible. Two practical corollaries:
1. That's why unmoderated lists usually disappoint expectation, drowning in
off-subject chitchat (like Emweb, a Dickinson list) or turning into the
boring monopoly of a few bandwidth hogs (like Eliot-L). A newbie to
EPound-L, I've been happily surprised by the high quality of the posts.
Yes, we've just been hit by three consecutive listserv posts from the same
person, followed by an unnecessary rhetorical question. But veterans of
other lists will understand that that really isn't a bad case of static.
2. A list moderator myself, I sometimes find myself thinking, "Don't these
people KNOW what a listserv is?" And then I think of _The Cantos_, with its
implicit expectation that of course any fool is equally acquainted with
Egyptian hieroglyphics and the Great Lakes policies of President Fillmore.
That may be an especially interesting thing to think about this year, the
bicentenary of _Lyrical Ballads_. What do you think: can it be that in ten
years our kids are going to regard Pound the way young people regarded Pope
in, say, 1808, and for the same intelligible and not serious reasons?
--
Jonathan Morse
Department of English
University of Hawaii at Manoa
[log in to unmask]
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 18:13:35 -0500
Reply-To: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Gregory {Greg} Downing <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: remove thyself
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 03:17 PM 1/24/98 -0500, you wrote:
> Why is it so difficult for people to keep the instructions they get
>when they join the list? Why is it necessary to repeat this info on the
>average of once a week?
>
The pigritude factor, I guess. This happens on virtually every list I'm on
where a moderator does not vet posts before forwarding them to the list (and
the latter process slows down discussion, of course). On some lists, the
listserv even sends the relevant instructions to everyone via the list every
month, on the first of the month. But even with that help, come the fifth or
tenth of the month people will be posting unsub requests to the list again,
or contacting listmembers privately asking to be unsubbed, as if any list
could be run where people could unsub other people than themselves. (Imagine
*that* possibility when a harsh debate breaks out....) Even after onlist
discussions of the futility of sending unsub messages to the list, people
still continue to ask the list to unsub them....
Maybe it's just a selfishness issue: i.e., if I can't be bothered to do it
properly myself, what I need to do is make myself a big pain, and then the
easiest thing for other people will simply be to do as I ask somehow. It
couldn't be *that* simple... could it??
Greg Downing/NYU, at [log in to unmask] or [log in to unmask]
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 23:06:25 -0500
Reply-To: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Daniel Pearlman <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Netiquette and Pound
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 04:58 PM 1/24/98 -0500, you wrote:
>At 03:17 PM 1/24/98 -0500, Sylvester Pollet wrote:
>
>> Why is it so difficult for people to keep the instructions they get
>>when they join the list? Why is it necessary to repeat this info on the
>>average of once a week?
>
Could this problem be solved very simply by the automatic
attachment of UNSUB instructions at the bottom of every message
posted on this List? ==DP
Dan Pearlman
Department of English
University of Rhode Island
Kingston, RI 02881
[Latest book: novel, BLACK FLAMES, White Pine Press, 1997]
Tel.: (home) 401 453-3027
(office) 401 874-4659
Fax: 401 874-2580
Internet: [log in to unmask]
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 22:09:21 -0600
Reply-To: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Joe Ahearn <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Netiquette and Pound
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> What do you think: can it be that in ten
>years our kids are going to regard Pound the way young people regarded Pope
>in, say, 1808, and for the same intelligible and not serious reasons?
>
I don't think it will take ten years. My son is sixteen, writes fiction and
poetry, reads Nietzsche, Schopenhauer, Burroughs. He thinks Pound is a
fossil. Or worse, a crazy boring old Fascist fossil that his dad reads. But
even factoring out the generational static between us, I think Pound will
continue to be an acquired taste as the years roll along. I notice that my
son and his friends favor **short** poems and fiction. I think perhaps
television and MTV, digested by my son in large quantities, may have worked
against EP (or Stevens, or even Whitman) in this regard.
And strangely enough, they all loathe language poetry...
Joe Ahearn
Rancho Loco Press
Dallas
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 23:56:33 -0500
Reply-To: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Gregory {Greg} Downing <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Netiquette and Pound
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 11:06 PM 1/24/98 -0500, you wrote:
> Could this problem be solved very simply by the automatic
>attachment of UNSUB instructions at the bottom of every message
>posted on this List? ==DP
>Dan Pearlman
>Department of English
>University of Rhode Island
>Kingston, RI 02881
>
Well, one never knows, do one.... BUT: I should add that on two lists I'm
on, a two-line instruction on how to go to a webpage where people can do a
simple, no-mess-no-fuss unsub is given at the bottom of every single
posting, which is more or less what you are suggesting. It does not solve
the problem at all. As I opined earlier, it's the pigritude factor, or in
some cases a kind of -- to use the pop-psych terminology --
passive-aggressive statement about not liking the list. Some people actually
post sarcastic little messages to the list-members in general when asking to
be unsubbed. And I forgot to mention in my last post.... On two lists I'm
on, the unsub info appears in the header of every message, in addition to
all the other precuations that are taken (monthly message, etc.), and it
still doesn't end the problem, because some people's email systems don't
show them headers unless they change their settings to reveal them.
There is no way to keep people from abusing public space without a
moderator, and sometimes that cure is worse than the disease.
I'm usually an optimist, but not I fear on this topic. Experience is a tough
teacher.
Best,
Greg Downing/NYU, at [log in to unmask] or [log in to unmask]
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 22:58:10 -0600
Reply-To: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Joe Ahearn <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Netiquette and Pound
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>
> Could this problem be solved very simply by the automatic
>attachment of UNSUB instructions at the bottom of every message
>posted on this List? ==DP
>Dan Pearlman
>Department of English
>University of Rhode Island
>Kingston, RI 02881
Great idea. If Mohamet won't come to the instructions, let the instructions
go to Mahomet.
Joe Ahearn
Rancho Loco Press
Dallas
'specializing in listserv unsubs at a reasonable fee'
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 01:38:09 -0500
Reply-To: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Daniel Pearlman <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Netiquette and Pound
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
I appreciate your pessimism in this regard, but
perhaps such an attached instruction re UNSUB
would reduce the sheer QUANTITY of such annoyances.
==DP
At 11:56 PM 1/24/98 -0500, you wrote:
>At 11:06 PM 1/24/98 -0500, you wrote:
>> Could this problem be solved very simply by the automatic
>>attachment of UNSUB instructions at the bottom of every message
>>posted on this List? ==DP
>>Dan Pearlman
>>Department of English
>>University of Rhode Island
>>Kingston, RI 02881
>>
>
>Well, one never knows, do one.... BUT: I should add that on two lists I'm
>on, a two-line instruction on how to go to a webpage where people can do a
>simple, no-mess-no-fuss unsub is given at the bottom of every single
>posting, which is more or less what you are suggesting. It does not solve
>the problem at all. As I opined earlier, it's the pigritude factor, or in
>some cases a kind of -- to use the pop-psych terminology --
>passive-aggressive statement about not liking the list. Some people actually
>post sarcastic little messages to the list-members in general when asking to
>be unsubbed. And I forgot to mention in my last post.... On two lists I'm
>on, the unsub info appears in the header of every message, in addition to
>all the other precuations that are taken (monthly message, etc.), and it
>still doesn't end the problem, because some people's email systems don't
>show them headers unless they change their settings to reveal them.
>
>There is no way to keep people from abusing public space without a
>moderator, and sometimes that cure is worse than the disease.
>
>I'm usually an optimist, but not I fear on this topic. Experience is a tough
>teacher.
>
>Best,
>
>Greg Downing/NYU, at [log in to unmask] or [log in to unmask]
>
Dan Pearlman
Department of English
University of Rhode Island
Kingston, RI 02881
[Latest book: novel, BLACK FLAMES, White Pine Press, 1997]
Tel.: (home) 401 453-3027
(office) 401 874-4659
Fax: 401 874-2580
Internet: [log in to unmask]
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 01:40:41 -0500
Reply-To: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Gregory {Greg} Downing <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Netiquette and Pound
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 01:38 AM 1/25/98 -0500, you wrote:
>I appreciate your pessimism in this regard, but
>perhaps such an attached instruction re UNSUB
>would reduce the sheer QUANTITY of such annoyances.
>==DP
>
(1) Give it the old college try.
(2) Don't hold your breath waiting for noticeable improvement.
Greg Downing/NYU, at [log in to unmask] or [log in to unmask]
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 07:50:41 -0500
Reply-To: Robert E Kibler <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "Robert E. Kibler" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Netiquette and Pound
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
On Sat, 24 Jan 1998 22:09:21 -0600 wrote...
>>
And yet at the same time, it seems to me that some of the experiments in
expressive form that Pound undertook are for the first time becoming
mainstream. The movie Pulp Fiction, for example, works through the disruption
of temporal reality and through provacative juxtapositions of images suggestive
of meaning. Twenty years ago, no one would have been able to accept such a
movie. As a culture, we are moving towards different receptions of reality, and
while some of those are frightening, there is, I think, something positive
afoot when popular culture is able to engage information that requires the
swift perception of distant relations. And this is Poundian, refined, made
pop. It is also illustrative of some kind of cultural effect, one that I
think suggests that Pound will become an acknowledged grand daddy. I know my
local Borders bookstore stocks more Pound books now than it did seven years
ago. Even critical works on Pound are there, from Kenner to Peter Makin. Nor
should we pass over the fact that as American culture comes more and more under
the influence of Asian culture, and perhaps, specifically Chinese culture,
those writers who were pushing the connection early will get an honored place.
That said, probably few people will ever read much Pound. Isn't there a story
in one of the biographies about Olga Rudge in the 60s, saying to some of the
flower children who had camped out in front of their house in Venice that if
any of them could recite just one line from the poetry, they could meet Pound?
The guy is for rock climbers.
What do you think: can it be that in ten
>>years our kids are going to regard Pound the way young people regarded Pope
>>in, say, 1808, and for the same intelligible and not serious reasons?
>>
>
>I don't think it will take ten years. My son is sixteen, writes fiction and
>poetry, reads Nietzsche, Schopenhauer, Burroughs. He thinks Pound is a
>fossil. Or worse, a crazy boring old Fascist fossil that his dad reads. But
>even factoring out the generational static between us, I think Pound will
>continue to be an acquired taste as the years roll along. I notice that my
>son and his friends favor **short** poems and fiction. I think perhaps
>television and MTV, digested by my son in large quantities, may have worked
>against EP (or Stevens, or even Whitman) in this regard.
>
>And strangely enough, they all loathe language poetry...
>
>Joe Ahearn
>Rancho Loco Press
>Dallas
>
>
>
>
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>
>
>
Robert E. Kibler
Department of English
University of Minnesota
[log in to unmask]
fortunatus et ille, deos qui novit agrestis,
Panaque Silvanumque senem Nymphasque sorores.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 13:31:44 -0500
Reply-To: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
From: sylvester pollet <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: remove thyself
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Thanks to all who responded with good suggestions. It's not my
list, but perhaps Burton Hatlen will find an easy way to repost the
instructions from time to time.
Pigritude I might be able to use sometime--that's a good one.
One particular pleasure of the Pound conference at Brunnenberg was
hearing how quickly and wittily Mary de Rachewiltz could summon up an
appropriate line from the Cantos for any eventuality. Perhaps these from
Canto 77:
And this day Abner lifted a shovel....
instead of watchin' it to see if it would
take action
At 6:13 PM -0500 1/24/98, Gregory {Greg} Downing wrote:
>At 03:17 PM 1/24/98 -0500, you wrote:
>> Why is it so difficult for people to keep the instructions they get
>>when they join the list? Why is it necessary to repeat this info on the
>>average of once a week?
>>
>
>The pigritude factor, I guess. This happens on virtually every list I'm on
>where a moderator does not vet posts before forwarding them to the list (and
>the latter process slows down discussion, of course). On some lists, the
>listserv even sends the relevant instructions to everyone via the list every
>month, on the first of the month. But even with that help, come the fifth or
>tenth of the month people will be posting unsub requests to the list again,
>or contacting listmembers privately asking to be unsubbed, as if any list
>could be run where people could unsub other people than themselves. (Imagine
>*that* possibility when a harsh debate breaks out....) Even after onlist
>discussions of the futility of sending unsub messages to the list, people
>still continue to ask the list to unsub them....
>
>Maybe it's just a selfishness issue: i.e., if I can't be bothered to do it
>properly myself, what I need to do is make myself a big pain, and then the
>easiest thing for other people will simply be to do as I ask somehow. It
>couldn't be *that* simple... could it??
>
>Greg Downing/NYU, at [log in to unmask] or [log in to unmask]
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 17:27:53 -0500
Reply-To: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Gregory {Greg} Downing <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: remove thyself
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 01:31 PM 1/25/98, you (sylvester pollet <[log in to unmask]>) wrote:
> Pigritude I might be able to use sometime--that's a good one.
>
Yes, it was on my mind because I won a contest on a wordplay list and was
punished by having to put forward an really obscure word for which other
people are challenged to make up fanciful but alluring definitions, as a
kind of competition. "Fictionary." Anyway, I used "pigritude" because I got
it from Latin (piger = idle, lazy, slothful, etc.; the noun is pigritudo),
thought it might make a cute alternative to the probably germanic
"laziness," calculated that remembering and employing it now and then might
save me a dented nose once in a while. Since I've never seen it in a book, I
figured it was obscure enough. It *is* in the OED, but all three usage cites
are from that mid-17C high-water mark of anglophone latinity -- and two of
the three usage cites are from glossaries, which at that period are
notorious for putting Latin- or Greek-based English words in their pages
that no one or virtually no one ever used, on the off chance someone might
start using them.
Pigritude's day has come, though. Hey, language -- as they say -- is part of
a cultural envoironment, and my motto is "Pigritude: Now More Than Ever."
All best to the nonpigritudinous poundians,
Greg Downing/NYU, at [log in to unmask] or [log in to unmask]
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 14:57:21 -0600
Reply-To: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Nikki M Pill <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: ezra a fossil?
>I don't think it will take ten years. My son is sixteen, writes >fiction
and>poetry, reads Nietzsche, Schopenhauer, Burroughs. He thinks Pound is
a>fossil.
to each his own... i *becamse* fascinated with pound when i was sixteen.
however, three years later, i'm grasping his writing better... partially
because i'm in a school where i can actually *study* his work, and
partially because of mental and emotional maturity. honestly, i consider
myself someone who is still learning how to read.
i personally need to read poems a few times before i can grok them, and
they're richer to me each time i go back. but i'm a strange bird in that
respect...i agree with joe aheam about the effect of mtv and modern
culture. in a poetry workshop i took this past year, the majority of the
students resented works that required serious thought, background
knowledge, etc. i think we're used to having so much information, from so
many different forms of media, right at our fingertips, that we get
really whiny when we have to work to understand something. after reading
plath's "fever 103" in my poetry workshop, one of my fellow students
said that if a poem is going to be that long, it needs to have an
[expletive deleted] or an [expletive deleted] in it to keep his
attention. (no, i did not rip his heretic tongue out). again, i'm a
strange bird. i *liked* working to try understanding things like "hugh
selwyn mauberly." i meet a lot of people who are enthusiastic about the
beats, but rarely anyone who has even read pound.
i can see robert kibler's point, about pound's influence on modern
culture. my modern poetry teacher pointed out that what's really "out
there" and avante-garde NOW will be digested and incorporated into
mainstream culture later... such is the poetic cycle. if i understand my
history correctly, then pound's pushing imagism paved the way for
important developments in modern poetry. i haven't come across any poets
right now who write "pure" imagism (i'm hardly an authority on poetry
"right now," though!), but hasn't it had a in impact, both subtle and
profound?
i live in chicago, where there are oodles and gobs of poetry readings
etc. i don't know if it's just that i'm older now, or if it's actually a
cultural thing, but every year i've met more people who write poetry.
however, it seems that there are more people in my age group who *write*
poetry than those who read it...
nikki
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=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 10:17:00 +0100
Reply-To: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Alexander Schmitz <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: re Mullins
Eustace Mullins, ex-editor of "Three Hands" and author of "The Federal Reserve Conspiracy"
(Omni, 1971) and much more recently - 1978 ! - of another strange book on "My Life in Christ",
should at any rate be approached VERY carefully as he belonged in this infamos club of EP
idolizers and perverters such as David Horton and John Kaspar. David Heymann ("The Last
Rower", pp 224 ff) and much earlier Harry Meacham in his book on EP at St. Elizabeths ("The
Caged Panther", pp 94, p 56 et al). All three were part of one of the politically darkest chapters in
EP's later biography, extreme right wing and racist. They are the very link that actually made
quite a number of people believe in a Pound/Little Rock-connection and that EP shd be blamed
with at least partial responsibilty for the race riots in Little Rock!
alex schmitz
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 18:15:58 -0500
Reply-To: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Jonathan Morse <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Netiquette and Pound
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
I can't imagine the typo would cause any problem for Poundians, but just
for the record the phrase "not serious" below should of course be "serious."
> What do you think: can it be that in ten
>years our kids are going to regard Pound the way young people regarded Pope
>in, say, 1808, and for the same intelligible and not serious reasons?
Jonathan Morse
hgea.org
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 18:50:06 -0500
Reply-To: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Jonathan Morse <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: A recent Mullins reference
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Mullins is mentioned in chapter 4 of Michael Lind's _Up from Conservatism:
Why the Right is Wrong for America_ (Free Press, 1996) as the author of a
book called _Secrets of the Federal Reserve: The London Connection_, one of
the sources of Pat Robertson's book _The New World Order_. Lind calls
_Secrets of the Federal Reserve_ "blatantly anti-Semitic; indeed, [its]
theories about Jewish machinations are difficult to distinguish from those
of Hitler and contemporary neo-Nazis" (105).
And he depressingly adds (107): "According to a publisher's note in
_Secrets of the Federal Reserve_, the book was originally commissioned by
the poet Ezra Pound in 1949. At the time Pound was confined in a mental
hospital, as an alternative to being tried for treason for his broadcasts
on behalf of Hitler and Mussolini during World War II. Mullins writes in
his foreword that his book was banned and burned in West Germany in 1955,
presumably under the laws banning neo-Nazi propaganda."
--
Jonathan Morse
Department of English
University of Hawaii at Manoa
[log in to unmask]
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 18:57:57 -0500
Reply-To: Robert E Kibler <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
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From: "Robert E. Kibler" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Netiquette and Pound
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On Mon, 26 Jan 1998 18:15:58 -0500 wrote...
>I can't imagine the typo would cause any problem for Poundians, but just
>for the record the phrase "not serious" below should of course be "serious."
>
Well, now that you bring it up--how did folk in 1808 value Pope? Wordsworth
had published his 1798 Preface, and that Augustan sense of balance which Pope's
verse embodied was the antithesis to romantic verse--it chopped thought into
couplets, so impeded the development and extension of ideas and emotional
power. Are you suggesting that the intelligible reader of 1808 would rightly
find Pope stilted, and are you then wondering whether or not Pound will be
found stilted in ten years by our kids, as was Pope then? Jus wondrin.
>> What do you think: can it be that in ten
>>years our kids are going to regard Pound the way young people regarded Pope
>>in, say, 1808, and for the same intelligible and not serious reasons?
>
>Jonathan Morse
>hgea.org
>
>
Robert E. Kibler
Department of English
University of Minnesota
[log in to unmask]
fortunatus et ille, deos qui novit agrestis,
Panaque Silvanumque senem Nymphasque sorores.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 19:35:04 -0500
Reply-To: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
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From: Jonathan Morse <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Pope in 1808, Pound in 2008
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Robert Kibler asks me:
> Are you suggesting that the intelligible reader of 1808 would rightly
>find Pope stilted, and are you then wondering whether or not Pound will be
>found stilted in ten years by our kids, as was Pope then?
Answer: yes, though "rightly" is a relative term. Of course (will I be able
to say "of course" in ten years?) I think Pound will last, just as Pope has
lasted. But if I were to bet on literary history repeating itself, I'd
remember
--oh, say, the phenomenon of Wertherism. Discussing that term, _The Oxford
Companion to Enbglish Literature_ says, "Goethe was later much embarrassed
by this early work and by the assumption that it was autobiographical," and
(if I recall Eckermann correctly) he tried to rationalize by appealing to
good taste. At the beginning of the book, Goethe said, Werther was reading
Homer; by the end, he was reading Ossian. Obviously the boy was going
crazy. But in 1774, the date of _Die Leiden des jungen Werthers_, everybody
in Europe who cared about poetry was reading Ossian.
--or, if you want a lighter example, Mrs. Gaskell's _Cranford_ (1853).
You'll recall that one of the characters in that novel is a set-in-her-ways
old lady who can't see why anybody would waste their time reading Dickens
when it's self-evident that the greatest novel ever written is _Rasselas_.
I can visualize us in that position in a few years--or rather I can
visualize us being thought to be in that position.
--
Jonathan Morse
Department of English
University of Hawaii at Manoa
[log in to unmask]
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 20:34:48 -0500
Reply-To: Robert E Kibler <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
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From: "Robert E. Kibler" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Pope in 1808, Pound in 2008
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On Mon, 26 Jan 1998 19:35:04 -0500 wrote...
>
A friend of mine at the University of Maryland wrote on a culture's ability to
anticipate its future, and looked at popular literary magazines over a ten year
period (I forget what period). Virtually none of those touted as the next best
poet-painter-provacateur then, has their name recognizably etched in fame's old
oak tree today. That seems to be the miraculous thing about living. Mostly no
way to predict what the next decade will bring, or carry over. Transport ten
years back--could the you then have predicted the circumstance of the you now?
Pound too seems to have been as shocked as anyone that he turned out to be a
bad guy, tied to riots in Arkansas, as A Schmitz points out. So many accounts
of him as egotistic, but also fun, nervous, good hearted, and shy. Wyndham
Lewis paints him reclined, almost retreating, in chair. Custer was a hero for
seventy years, Ireland's Patrick a saint. Who knows how any of them will be
received in the 21st century? Any of us? You gotta love it.
Robert Kibler asks me:
>
>> Are you suggesting that the intelligible reader of 1808 would rightly
>>find Pope stilted, and are you then wondering whether or not Pound will be
>>found stilted in ten years by our kids, as was Pope then?
>
>Answer: yes, though "rightly" is a relative term. Of course (will I be able
>to say "of course" in ten years?) I think Pound will last, just as Pope has
>lasted. But if I were to bet on literary history repeating itself, I'd
>remember
>
>--oh, say, the phenomenon of Wertherism. Discussing that term, _The Oxford
>Companion to Enbglish Literature_ says, "Goethe was later much embarrassed
>by this early work and by the assumption that it was autobiographical," and
>(if I recall Eckermann correctly) he tried to rationalize by appealing to
>good taste. At the beginning of the book, Goethe said, Werther was reading
>Homer; by the end, he was reading Ossian. Obviously the boy was going
>crazy. But in 1774, the date of _Die Leiden des jungen Werthers_, everybody
>in Europe who cared about poetry was reading Ossian.
>
>--or, if you want a lighter example, Mrs. Gaskell's _Cranford_ (1853).
>You'll recall that one of the characters in that novel is a set-in-her-ways
>old lady who can't see why anybody would waste their time reading Dickens
>when it's self-evident that the greatest novel ever written is _Rasselas_.
>I can visualize us in that position in a few years--or rather I can
>visualize us being thought to be in that position.
>
>--
>Jonathan Morse
>Department of English
>University of Hawaii at Manoa
>[log in to unmask]
>
>
Robert E. Kibler
Department of English
University of Minnesota
[log in to unmask]
fortunatus et ille, deos qui novit agrestis,
Panaque Silvanumque senem Nymphasque sorores.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 21:51:55 -0800
Reply-To: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
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From: Harold Rhenisch <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Pope in 1808, Pound in 2008
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Pound is already stilted.
I don't have a problem with that, and it does not diminish him for me.
Harold Rhenisch
[log in to unmask]
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Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 08:34:37 -0500
Reply-To: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
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Sender: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
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From: Tim Romano <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Pope in 1808, Pound in 2008
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Of course 'stilted' is a relative term, so I can't
disagree with you outright. But if one compares the
diction of Pound's early works with that of the poetry
that was being written at the time and with that of the
generation preceding, we find in Pound a relatively
natural, straightforward, even colloquial language,
and it stays that way, even as he begins to experiment
with non-iambic meters.
Also, take a look at Pound's review of Robert Frost's
first book of poetry, where P. condemns in lesser
writers (not meaning Frost) the use of the
'circumplectious polysyllable' -- I hope my memory has
not twisted Pound's delightfully sarcastic phrase into
something unrecognizable.
Tim Romano
Harold Rhenisch wrote:
>
> Pound is already stilted.
>
> I don't have a problem with that, and it does not diminish him for me.
>
> Harold Rhenisch
> [log in to unmask]
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Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 09:28:15 -0500
Reply-To: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
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Sender: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
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From: Daniel Pearlman <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Pope in 1808, Pound in 2008
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I think that if the Cantos were to become available
in hypertext format on the 'Net (infinite Borgesian
links, etc.) we would see a tremendous upsurge in
interest in EP among the twenty-nothing and thirty-
nothing generation that has hardly even heard of
him. ND might be smart to offer, let's say, the
first 30 Cantos in this format on the Net for
free and hope to rope in buyers of a CD-hypertext
version of the whole work. Maybe even the book
itself.
==Dan Pearlman
At 09:51 PM 1/26/98 -0800, you wrote:
>Pound is already stilted.
>
>I don't have a problem with that, and it does not diminish him for me.
>
>Harold Rhenisch
>[log in to unmask]
>
Dan Pearlman
Department of English
University of Rhode Island
Kingston, RI 02881
[Latest book: novel, BLACK FLAMES, White Pine Press, 1997]
Tel.: (home) 401 453-3027
(office) 401 874-4659
Fax: 401 874-2580
Internet: [log in to unmask]
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Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 10:45:59 -0500
Reply-To: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
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From: Burt Hatlen <[log in to unmask]>
Organization: University of Maine
Subject: Re: A recent Mullins reference
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Speaking of troublesome people: Recent postings have provided some
useful information on Eustace Mullins. But I wonder about some of the
other people in the St. Elizabeths group. Stock and Heymann both
provide some information about John Kasper in 1956 and 1957,
culminating in his arrest and imprisonment for inciting violent
resistance to racial integration. (And I myself have a vivid image of
a picture, perhaps in Time or Newsweek, of Kasper standing in front of
a school in Clinton, Tennessee, haranguing a crowd. I suspect the
picture has stayed in my mind because the accompanying article linked
him with EP, whose Cantos I was first reading in 1957.) But does anyone
know anything about Kasper's subsequent career? And whatever became of
T. David Horton? And was Dallam Simpson part of this same political
nexus?
Burt Hatlen
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Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 11:21:31 -0400
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From: Cameron McWhirter <[log in to unmask]>
Organization: The Cincinnati Enquirer
Subject: Re: A recent Mullins reference
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Re T. David Horton.
Not sure what his political leanings are, but for any researcher here's
what I have in the Hamilton College Alumni Register (1995)
Thomas D. Horton '53
Attorney
P.O. Box 2107
Carson City, NV 89702
I believe someone, maybe a Hamilton College staffer, told me years ago
that he had disavowed much of that stuff. His big hook with EP was the
constitution and why isnt the constitution taught properly at Hamilton
College.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 08:57:44 -0800
Reply-To: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
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Sender: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
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From: Harold Rhenisch <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Pope in 1808, Pound in 2008
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Tim Romano pointed out that Pound's language is "relatively
natural, straightforward, even colloquial".
You bet it is. That's not what I meant by stilted. I meant that it shows
its place in time and that place is distant. As a model, it is not stilted,
mind you.
And yes, at least it isn't circumplectious polysyllabic, a fashion which
Pound's example of straightforward talk sadly never managed to expurgate.
Would not the current talk among some new formalists of imagism being
retrograde and destructive of poetry and language be leaning in that
direction? But that's a different matter.
Dan Pearlman thought out loud:
>>if the Cantos were to become available
in hypertext format on the 'Net (infinite Borgesian
links, etc.) we would see a tremendous upsurge in
interest in EP among the twenty-nothing and thirty-
nothing generation that has hardly even heard of
him. ND might be smart to offer, let's say, the
first 30 Cantos in this format on the Net for
free and hope to rope in buyers of a CD-hypertext
version of the whole work. Maybe even the book
itself.<<
Perfect. I hope they start tomorrow. I reckon we got the 20th century
wrong. We might as well line up again at the starting gate.
regards,
Harold Rhenisch
[log in to unmask]
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Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 11:01:00 -0800
Reply-To: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
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From: John McBrearty <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Netiquette and Pound
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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At 11:56 PM 1/24/98 -0500, Greg Downing/NYU,<[log in to unmask]> or
<[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
>Well, one never knows, do one.... BUT: I should add that on two lists I'm
>on, a two-line instruction on how to go to a webpage where people can do a
>simple, no-mess-no-fuss unsub is given at the bottom of every single
>posting, which is more or less what you are suggesting. It does not solve
>the problem at all....
I agree. "Remove me" requests are to a listserve what coughs are to the
symphony.
(I do notice that at the San Francisco Symphony, when Michael Tilson Thomas
presents a modernist piece, a percentage of the usual coughs for some
reason are replaced by sneezes, but that's another topic....)
Regards,
John McBrearty
Suisun City, CA
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 13:46:59 -0600
Reply-To: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
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From: William Barry Ahearn <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: where are they now?
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Burt Hatlen asked about the subsequent careers of some of EP's disciples
from the St. Elizabeths period. As of 1993, T. David Horton was an attorney
in Carson City, Nevada. I wrote to him at that time, asking for some
information relating to the Pound/Cummings letters. No reply came.
Eustace Mullins, so far as I know, is still busy lecturing and publishing.
I talked to him at his home in Staunton, Virginia, a few years ago.
Barry Ahearn
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 06:12:51 +0900
Reply-To: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
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From: akiyoshi miyake <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: on Nesta Webster
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Colleagues,
I have a question on Nesta Webster. Leon Surette, in his _The Birth of
Modernism_, conjectures that Pound read her_ Secret Societies and
Subversive Movements_(pulshd in 1924) around 1940(Surette, 23, 47).
But I am afraid his reasoning for the dating is not so persuasive.
He points out that she identifies in an appendix the source of the
_Protocols_ but that she asserts the plausibility of the forgery book,
which the poet read in 1940. That is to say, Surette's dating is based
on the assumption that reading Webster led to the immediate reading the
_Protocols_.
The assumption premises that Pound read Webster's book with interest.
But her book finds(of course erroneously) in Pan-Germanic Movement one
of the instruments "conspiratorial Jews" are maneuvering from behind the
scenes. And around 1940 Social Nationalism was explicitly and fatally
cruel to Jews and Jewish people, and Pound knew that. If the poet had
read the book around that time, he would have believed that the book was
a mere ridiculous fantasy. If he thought Webster was trustworthy,as
he did, Pound had to read her earlier, when he was not interested in
German policy against Jews.
Is there someone who have evidence enough to fix the date of when the
poet read Webster? I ask this question because the book is very important
in its influence on the formation of Pound's anti-semitic thought.
akiyoshi miyake
home:[log in to unmask]
office:[log in to unmask]
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 17:34:49 -0500
Reply-To: Robert E Kibler <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "Robert E. Kibler" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: ubi sunt?
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On Tue, 27 Jan 1998 13:46:59 -0600 wrote...
>
Marcella Spann?
the other St. Elisabeths woman? What did they do with themselves after their
Pound years? And what did Eustace Mullins have to say about years as
Pound's disciple?
Burt Hatlen asked about the subsequent careers of some of EP's disciples
>from the St. Elizabeths period. As of 1993, T. David Horton was an attorney
>in Carson City, Nevada. I wrote to him at that time, asking for some
>information relating to the Pound/Cummings letters. No reply came.
>
>Eustace Mullins, so far as I know, is still busy lecturing and publishing.
>I talked to him at his home in Staunton, Virginia, a few years ago.
>
>Barry Ahearn
>
>
Robert E. Kibler
Department of English
University of Minnesota
[log in to unmask]
fortunatus et ille, deos qui novit agrestis,
Panaque Silvanumque senem Nymphasque sorores.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 17:57:32 -0500
Reply-To: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
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From: laura and jeff <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: hello
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my name is jeffrey daniel miller. i am a poet. i'm joining this list in
hopes that i can use the info i get from it to help me in my quest to get
past modernism and post-modernism.
pound is one of the poets i return to the most. i am completely facinated
with his work and his life. since i have started an epic my returns have
been that much more fequent.
i am currently working on an essay approaching pound from the perspective
i've had the hardest time dealing with: political. i am an anarchist. i have
had a breakthru tho (while reading a book that approaches pound and eliot
through their politics-- not condeming or excusing), and am trying to work
my notes into some recognizable form.
if anyone has any insights on the above i would -really- like to hear them.
i am looking forward to the discussions.
thank you for reading.
jeff.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There are no hierarchies, no infinite, no such many as mass,
there are only
eyes in all heads
to be looked out of
-charles olson, from "letter 6" (of the maximus poems)
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 16:56:32 -0500
Reply-To: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
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From: Erin Templeton <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Pope in 1808, Pound in 2008
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<snip>
>>>if the Cantos were to become available
>in hypertext format on the 'Net (infinite Borgesian
>links, etc.) we would see a tremendous upsurge in
>interest in EP among the twenty-nothing and thirty-
>nothing generation that has hardly even heard of
>him. ND might be smart to offer, let's say, the
>first 30 Cantos in this format on the Net for
>free and hope to rope in buyers of a CD-hypertext
>version of the whole work. Maybe even the book
>itself.<<
>
As a lurking member of the so-called "twenty-nothing and thirty-nothing
generation," I resent the condescension in this thread. Not all Poundians
are over forty, and it seems to me that younger Poundians should be
encouraged, not mocked. We are all on the same side here aren't we? I
thought the point of the list was to engage in a discussion about a poet
whose work interests all of us.
I hardly think that the reason younger scholars and stdents of
literature have "hardly even heard of [Pound]" is because the Cantos aren't
available on the Web. While electronic access might be convenient, it isn't
preventing students and aspiring scholars from reading EP. Perhaps a more
likely reason is his conspicuous absence from the classroom--whether because
his poetry is "too difficult" or because many instructors find his politics
distasteful or inappropriate for the classroom. As an undergraduate, I was
always curious about Pound, but never got the chance to read him. It wasn't
until my second semester of graduate school that I found his work on a
syllabus, and even still, I find that the pre-dominant attitude among
professors and students is one of grudging appreciation--yes, he was an
important figure, but his poetry is difficult to understand and often best
left to interested individuals with lots of free time and additional
references. Availability of texts, in my opinion, isn't the problem--it's
Pound's troubled position within the institution.
Erin Templeton
Dept. of English
Penn State University
University Park, PA 16802
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 18:55:01 -0500
Reply-To: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
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From: laura and jeff <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Pope in 1808, Pound in 2008
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
i second this.
the problem that many people of this (my, i'm about to turn 23) vastly
misunderstood (and greatly marginalized) generation have with pound is not
availability, but help. there is no easy resource for pound as there is for
eliot or joyce. so much is either overly (psudo)intellectual, or incredibly
reactionary. and there is so much of it. pound is not hard to understand so
much as the stigma surrounding pound is hard to get thru.
so much of what i have read concerning pound has been the same things stated
over and over again in what seems to be a vast hope to prove that the author
is -also- an intellectual because -they- can write about pound. but no new
ground is broken. it's disgusting. the fact that poetry going into the 21st
c. is incresingly stagnant proves that there is more need for pound now than
ever. but us youngins are not given the help we need because there are too
many pound scholars fucking around instead of thinking.
but i guess it's up to us to find new ways of dealing with pound, everyone
else is too busy trying to impress one another.
i'll not rant.
jeff.
>As a lurking member of the so-called "twenty-nothing and thirty-nothing
>generation," I resent the condescension in this thread. Not all Poundians
>are over forty, and it seems to me that younger Poundians should be
>encouraged, not mocked. We are all on the same side here aren't we? I
>thought the point of the list was to engage in a discussion about a poet
>whose work interests all of us.
> I hardly think that the reason younger scholars and stdents of
>literature have "hardly even heard of [Pound]" is because the Cantos aren't
>available on the Web. While electronic access might be convenient, it isn't
>preventing students and aspiring scholars from reading EP. Perhaps a more
>likely reason is his conspicuous absence from the classroom--whether because
>his poetry is "too difficult" or because many instructors find his politics
>distasteful or inappropriate for the classroom. As an undergraduate, I was
>always curious about Pound, but never got the chance to read him. It wasn't
>until my second semester of graduate school that I found his work on a
>syllabus, and even still, I find that the pre-dominant attitude among
>professors and students is one of grudging appreciation--yes, he was an
>important figure, but his poetry is difficult to understand and often best
>left to interested individuals with lots of free time and additional
>references. Availability of texts, in my opinion, isn't the problem--it's
>Pound's troubled position within the institution.
>
>Erin Templeton
>Dept. of English
>Penn State University
>University Park, PA 16802
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There are no hierarchies, no infinite, no such many as mass,
there are only
eyes in all heads
to be looked out of
-charles olson, from "letter 6" (of the maximus poems)
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 19:11:44 -0500
Reply-To: Robert E Kibler <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "Robert E. Kibler" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Pope in 1808, Pound in 2008
MIME-Version: 1.0
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On Tue, 27 Jan 1998 18:55:01 -0500 wrote...
>
I just wish that I was one of these scholars who was fucking around more.
i second this.
>the problem that many people of this (my, i'm about to turn 23) vastly
>misunderstood (and greatly marginalized) generation have with pound is not
>availability, but help. there is no easy resource for pound as there is for
>eliot or joyce. so much is either overly (psudo)intellectual, or incredibly
>reactionary. and there is so much of it. pound is not hard to understand so
>much as the stigma surrounding pound is hard to get thru.
>so much of what i have read concerning pound has been the same things stated
>over and over again in what seems to be a vast hope to prove that the author
>is -also- an intellectual because -they- can write about pound. but no new
>ground is broken. it's disgusting. the fact that poetry going into the 21st
>c. is incresingly stagnant proves that there is more need for pound now than
>ever. but us youngins are not given the help we need because there are too
>many pound scholars fucking around instead of thinking.
>but i guess it's up to us to find new ways of dealing with pound, everyone
>else is too busy trying to impress one another.
>i'll not rant.
>jeff.
>
>
>>As a lurking member of the so-called "twenty-nothing and thirty-nothing
>>generation," I resent the condescension in this thread. Not all Poundians
>>are over forty, and it seems to me that younger Poundians should be
>>encouraged, not mocked. We are all on the same side here aren't we? I
>>thought the point of the list was to engage in a discussion about a poet
>>whose work interests all of us.
>> I hardly think that the reason younger scholars and stdents of
>>literature have "hardly even heard of [Pound]" is because the Cantos aren't
>>available on the Web. While electronic access might be convenient, it isn't
>>preventing students and aspiring scholars from reading EP. Perhaps a more
>>likely reason is his conspicuous absence from the classroom--whether because
>>his poetry is "too difficult" or because many instructors find his politics
>>distasteful or inappropriate for the classroom. As an undergraduate, I was
>>always curious about Pound, but never got the chance to read him. It wasn't
>>until my second semester of graduate school that I found his work on a
>>syllabus, and even still, I find that the pre-dominant attitude among
>>professors and students is one of grudging appreciation--yes, he was an
>>important figure, but his poetry is difficult to understand and often best
>>left to interested individuals with lots of free time and additional
>>references. Availability of texts, in my opinion, isn't the problem--it's
>>Pound's troubled position within the institution.
>>
>>Erin Templeton
>>Dept. of English
>>Penn State University
>>University Park, PA 16802
>>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
>
> There are no hierarchies, no infinite, no such many as mass,
> there are only
> eyes in all heads
> to be looked out of
>
> -charles olson, from "letter 6" (of the maximus
> poems)
>
>
Robert E. Kibler
Department of English
University of Minnesota
[log in to unmask]
fortunatus et ille, deos qui novit agrestis,
Panaque Silvanumque senem Nymphasque sorores.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 19:18:01 -0500
Reply-To: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Daniel Pearlman <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Pope in 1808, Pound in 2008
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
By the way, when I facetiously mention
"the twenty-nothing and thirty-
nothing generation that has hardly even heard of
[EP]," I am certainly not implicating literate
grad students like Erin T. but rather the whole
[de-]generation of audiophilic, bibliophobic
digerati who are more likely to learn via the
Net--which is our current substitute for
Authority and even God--than from old-fart, my-
generational media like paper.
Dan P
>
>Dan Pearlman thought out loud:
>
>>>if the Cantos were to become available
>in hypertext format on the 'Net (infinite Borgesian
>links, etc.) we would see a tremendous upsurge in
>interest in EP among the twenty-nothing and thirty-
>nothing generation that has hardly even heard of
>him. ND might be smart to offer, let's say, the
>first 30 Cantos in this format on the Net for
>free and hope to rope in buyers of a CD-hypertext
>version of the whole work. Maybe even the book
>itself.<<
>
>Perfect. I hope they start tomorrow. I reckon we got the 20th century
>wrong. We might as well line up again at the starting gate.
>
>regards,
>
>Harold Rhenisch
>[log in to unmask]
>
Dan Pearlman
Department of English
University of Rhode Island
Kingston, RI 02881
[Latest book: novel, BLACK FLAMES, White Pine Press, 1997]
Tel.: (home) 401 453-3027
(office) 401 874-4659
Fax: 401 874-2580
Internet: [log in to unmask]
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 19:27:17 -0500
Reply-To: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Daniel Pearlman <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: on Nesta Webster
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
I don't understand why Ms. Miyake assumes that
Pound would have had to read a particular book,
by Webster or anyone, in 1940 to have formed
antisemitic opinions which were well in evidence
by the 1930s. Pound would have heard about the
"Protocols of Zion" possibly as early as 1921,
when they were exposed for a fakery in the London
Times.
==Dan Pearlman
At 06:12 AM 1/28/98 +0900, you wrote:
>Colleagues,
>I have a question on Nesta Webster. Leon Surette, in his _The Birth of
>Modernism_, conjectures that Pound read her_ Secret Societies and
>Subversive Movements_(pulshd in 1924) around 1940(Surette, 23, 47).
>But I am afraid his reasoning for the dating is not so persuasive.
>He points out that she identifies in an appendix the source of the
>_Protocols_ but that she asserts the plausibility of the forgery book,
>which the poet read in 1940. That is to say, Surette's dating is based
>on the assumption that reading Webster led to the immediate reading the
>_Protocols_.
>The assumption premises that Pound read Webster's book with interest.
>But her book finds(of course erroneously) in Pan-Germanic Movement one
>of the instruments "conspiratorial Jews" are maneuvering from behind the
>scenes. And around 1940 Social Nationalism was explicitly and fatally
>cruel to Jews and Jewish people, and Pound knew that. If the poet had
>read the book around that time, he would have believed that the book was
>a mere ridiculous fantasy. If he thought Webster was trustworthy,as
>he did, Pound had to read her earlier, when he was not interested in
>German policy against Jews.
>Is there someone who have evidence enough to fix the date of when the
>poet read Webster? I ask this question because the book is very important
>in its influence on the formation of Pound's anti-semitic thought.
>
>
>akiyoshi miyake
>home:[log in to unmask]
>office:[log in to unmask]
>
Dan Pearlman
Department of English
University of Rhode Island
Kingston, RI 02881
[Latest book: novel, BLACK FLAMES, White Pine Press, 1997]
Tel.: (home) 401 453-3027
(office) 401 874-4659
Fax: 401 874-2580
Internet: [log in to unmask]
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 19:37:53 -0500
Reply-To: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
From: laura and jeff <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Pope in 1808, Pound in 2008
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>> there is no easy resource for pound as there is for
>> eliot or joyce.
>
>What about Terrell's guides?
again: not an easy resource. the cantos make more sense on their own. sure,
it's indexed and what not, but it is not accessable.
>so much is either overly (psudo)intellectual, or incredibly
>> reactionary. and there is so much of it. pound is not hard to understand so
>> much as the stigma surrounding pound is hard to get thru.
>
>Uh... I've been reading the Cantos for seven years now, and there's still
>a lot of it I don't understand.
what is there not to understand? the first time i read the cantos i was in
high school and was completely blown away. the last five or six times i've
read it i was just as blown away. but i really don't think that
understanding the cantos has anything to do with getting every little
reference, and i seriously doubt that pound himself even cared if anyone got
every reference. his work (as has been said so many times) is like
sculpture: you don't look at the eye of a figure by rodin to understand the
piece, you stand back and take it as a whole for it's emotional impact, etc.
("only emotion endures"). (but, of course, you -do- want to look at just the
eye to see the beauty of the craftsmanship, but that is not the same as
understanding.)
>> so much of what i have read concerning pound has been the same things stated
>> over and over again in what seems to be a vast hope to prove that the author
>> is -also- an intellectual because -they- can write about pound. but no new
>> ground is broken.
>
>Sounds like you aren't reading much. People like Leon Surette, Tim
>Redman, Jean-Michel Rabate, Robert Casillo and others have done a ton of
>really useful and original work. The best Pound criticism (with the
>exception of Hugh Kenner's work) has come out in the last five to ten
>years.
i don't think i've seen any of this. now -this- is the stuff that should be
easily found on the internet. i've searched and searched (maybe not in the
right places) for new things.
thanks for the names.
>> it's disgusting. the fact that poetry going into the 21st
>> c. is incresingly stagnant proves that there is more need for pound now than
>> ever. but us youngins are not given the help we need because there are too
>> many pound scholars fucking around instead of thinking.
>
>What poets are you reading? There's a buttload of really exciting poetry
>out there, but you're not going to find it in mainstream journals -- and a
>lot of it is influenced by Pound. Instead of ranting, go read.
i don't think i've found a poet that started writing after 1970 that i
really enjoy. (as for what i am reading... got zukofsky and creeley right
here in my bag. and, as my sig will attest, there is olson. anne waldman,
amiri baraka, ... what poets don't i read would be an easier question to
answer.)
=)
jeff.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There are no hierarchies, no infinite, no such many as mass,
there are only
eyes in all heads
to be looked out of
-charles olson, from "letter 6" (of the maximus poems)
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 19:44:31 -0500
Reply-To: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
From: laura and jeff <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Pope in 1808, Pound in 2008
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
i'm a hack poet who's never been to college.
i don't drink (or use any drugs for that matter).
i hate the computer, but love to use it for resources like this (which,
dispite my tone, i am enjoying so far).
-all- of my friends enjoy pound. we range from philosopher/poet types, to
painters, to silly punk kids. we read him, talk about him, are influeced, etc.
few of us are in school.
all of us read.
jeff.
>By the way, when I facetiously mention
>"the twenty-nothing and thirty-
>nothing generation that has hardly even heard of
>[EP]," I am certainly not implicating literate
>grad students like Erin T. but rather the whole
>[de-]generation of audiophilic, bibliophobic
>digerati who are more likely to learn via the
>Net--which is our current substitute for
>Authority and even God--than from old-fart, my-
>generational media like paper.
>
>Dan P
>
>>
>>Dan Pearlman thought out loud:
>>
>>>>if the Cantos were to become available
>>in hypertext format on the 'Net (infinite Borgesian
>>links, etc.) we would see a tremendous upsurge in
>>interest in EP among the twenty-nothing and thirty-
>>nothing generation that has hardly even heard of
>>him. ND might be smart to offer, let's say, the
>>first 30 Cantos in this format on the Net for
>>free and hope to rope in buyers of a CD-hypertext
>>version of the whole work. Maybe even the book
>>itself.<<
>>
>>Perfect. I hope they start tomorrow. I reckon we got the 20th century
>>wrong. We might as well line up again at the starting gate.
>>
>>regards,
>>
>>Harold Rhenisch
>>[log in to unmask]
>>
>Dan Pearlman
>Department of English
>University of Rhode Island
>Kingston, RI 02881
>
>[Latest book: novel, BLACK FLAMES, White Pine Press, 1997]
>
>Tel.: (home) 401 453-3027
> (office) 401 874-4659
>Fax: 401 874-2580
>Internet: [log in to unmask]
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There are no hierarchies, no infinite, no such many as mass,
there are only
eyes in all heads
to be looked out of
-charles olson, from "letter 6" (of the maximus poems)
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 19:49:02 -0500
Reply-To: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
From: laura and jeff <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Pope in 1808, Pound in 2008
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>I just wish that I was one of these scholars who was fucking around more.
i certainly didn't mean to offend.
i'm sure you love your work.
but you have to admit that there is a lot of shit that gets passed around,
and a lot of people who just want to show off.
but then there are obviously those who work very hard.
again: sorry.
jeff.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There are no hierarchies, no infinite, no such many as mass,
there are only
eyes in all heads
to be looked out of
-charles olson, from "letter 6" (of the maximus poems)
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 19:56:45 -0500
Reply-To: Robert E Kibler <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "Robert E. Kibler" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Pope in 1808, Pound in 2008
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
On Tue, 27 Jan 1998 19:44:31 -0500 wrote...
>
And yet to be fair, mention Pound in a freshman survery course, and almost no
one has heard of him. Is it really likely that those outside of the university
or institution of higher ed are like you, or even as involved in the study and
discussion of poets and poetry as is a bunch of freshman in a literary survey
class? In my wildest dreams, your kind would be common. In Pound's wildest
dreams--in Jeffersons dreams--the idea of the educated farmer--but the chief
complaint about American and 20th century culture generally might be that the
only place one can get exposure to thought, discussion, and a sense of who is
who and what's what, is the university. The control that institution has on
what is acceptable literary expression is appalling, but the greater problem is
that it is just about the only game in town, barring a few collections of card
playing, house painting poets here and there. Admit it--you are a rare bunch.
i'm a hack poet who's never been to college.
>i don't drink (or use any drugs for that matter).
>i hate the computer, but love to use it for resources like this (which,
>dispite my tone, i am enjoying so far).
>-all- of my friends enjoy pound. we range from philosopher/poet types, to
>painters, to silly punk kids. we read him, talk about him, are influeced, etc.
>few of us are in school.
>all of us read.
>jeff.
>
>>By the way, when I facetiously mention
>>"the twenty-nothing and thirty-
>>nothing generation that has hardly even heard of
>>[EP]," I am certainly not implicating literate
>>grad students like Erin T. but rather the whole
>>[de-]generation of audiophilic, bibliophobic
>>digerati who are more likely to learn via the
>>Net--which is our current substitute for
>>Authority and even God--than from old-fart, my-
>>generational media like paper.
>>
>>Dan P
>>
>>>
>>>Dan Pearlman thought out loud:
>>>
>>>>>if the Cantos were to become available
>>>in hypertext format on the 'Net (infinite Borgesian
>>>links, etc.) we would see a tremendous upsurge in
>>>interest in EP among the twenty-nothing and thirty-
>>>nothing generation that has hardly even heard of
>>>him. ND might be smart to offer, let's say, the
>>>first 30 Cantos in this format on the Net for
>>>free and hope to rope in buyers of a CD-hypertext
>>>version of the whole work. Maybe even the book
>>>itself.<<
>>>
>>>Perfect. I hope they start tomorrow. I reckon we got the 20th century
>>>wrong. We might as well line up again at the starting gate.
>>>
>>>regards,
>>>
>>>Harold Rhenisch
>>>[log in to unmask]
>>>
>>Dan Pearlman
>>Department of English
>>University of Rhode Island
>>Kingston, RI 02881
>>
>>[Latest book: novel, BLACK FLAMES, White Pine Press, 1997]
>>
>>Tel.: (home) 401 453-3027
>> (office) 401 874-4659
>>Fax: 401 874-2580
>>Internet: [log in to unmask]
>>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
>
> There are no hierarchies, no infinite, no such many as mass,
> there are only
> eyes in all heads
> to be looked out of
>
> -charles olson, from "letter 6" (of the maximus
> poems)
>
>
Robert E. Kibler
Department of English
University of Minnesota
[log in to unmask]
fortunatus et ille, deos qui novit agrestis,
Panaque Silvanumque senem Nymphasque sorores.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 20:01:34 -0500
Reply-To: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
From: laura and jeff <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: on Nesta Webster
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
i don't understand how reading this book could be considered to have been
important to the formation of pound's anti-semitic thought. seems pretty
clear from earlier drafts of some of his essays that his bigotry existed
well before he became interested in economics, let alone italian facism
(well before the 30's even). i've always just figured that the anti-semitism
came from his cultural heritage, was strengthened by his growing interest in
money, and -then- influenced by books or what not.
jeff.
>I don't understand why Ms. Miyake assumes that
>Pound would have had to read a particular book,
>by Webster or anyone, in 1940 to have formed
>antisemitic opinions which were well in evidence
>by the 1930s. Pound would have heard about the
>"Protocols of Zion" possibly as early as 1921,
>when they were exposed for a fakery in the London
>Times.
>
>==Dan Pearlman
>
>
>At 06:12 AM 1/28/98 +0900, you wrote:
>>Colleagues,
>>I have a question on Nesta Webster. Leon Surette, in his _The Birth of
>>Modernism_, conjectures that Pound read her_ Secret Societies and
>>Subversive Movements_(pulshd in 1924) around 1940(Surette, 23, 47).
>>But I am afraid his reasoning for the dating is not so persuasive.
>>He points out that she identifies in an appendix the source of the
>>_Protocols_ but that she asserts the plausibility of the forgery book,
>>which the poet read in 1940. That is to say, Surette's dating is based
>>on the assumption that reading Webster led to the immediate reading the
>>_Protocols_.
>>The assumption premises that Pound read Webster's book with interest.
>>But her book finds(of course erroneously) in Pan-Germanic Movement one
>>of the instruments "conspiratorial Jews" are maneuvering from behind the
>>scenes. And around 1940 Social Nationalism was explicitly and fatally
>>cruel to Jews and Jewish people, and Pound knew that. If the poet had
>>read the book around that time, he would have believed that the book was
>>a mere ridiculous fantasy. If he thought Webster was trustworthy,as
>>he did, Pound had to read her earlier, when he was not interested in
>>German policy against Jews.
>>Is there someone who have evidence enough to fix the date of when the
>>poet read Webster? I ask this question because the book is very important
>>in its influence on the formation of Pound's anti-semitic thought.
>>
>>
>>akiyoshi miyake
>>home:[log in to unmask]
>>office:[log in to unmask]
>>
>Dan Pearlman
>Department of English
>University of Rhode Island
>Kingston, RI 02881
>
>[Latest book: novel, BLACK FLAMES, White Pine Press, 1997]
>
>Tel.: (home) 401 453-3027
> (office) 401 874-4659
>Fax: 401 874-2580
>Internet: [log in to unmask]
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There are no hierarchies, no infinite, no such many as mass,
there are only
eyes in all heads
to be looked out of
-charles olson, from "letter 6" (of the maximus poems)
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 20:06:09 -0500
Reply-To: Robert E Kibler <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "Robert E. Kibler" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Pope in 1808, Pound in 2008
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
On Tue, 27 Jan 1998 19:49:02 -0500 wrote...
>
I was just trying to make a joke....and in any case, offense is sometimes a
good thing...didn't D.H. Lawrence write that what society needs is more
dangerous people....and yet it does its best to eliminate them, to neutralize
the human product?
I just wish that I was one of these scholars who was fucking around more.
>
>i certainly didn't mean to offend.
>i'm sure you love your work.
>but you have to admit that there is a lot of shit that gets passed around,
>and a lot of people who just want to show off.
>but then there are obviously those who work very hard.
>again: sorry.
>jeff.
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
>
> There are no hierarchies, no infinite, no such many as mass,
> there are only
> eyes in all heads
> to be looked out of
>
> -charles olson, from "letter 6" (of the maximus
> poems)
>
>
Robert E. Kibler
Department of English
University of Minnesota
[log in to unmask]
fortunatus et ille, deos qui novit agrestis,
Panaque Silvanumque senem Nymphasque sorores.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 21:40:51 -0500
Reply-To: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Daniel Pearlman <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Pope in 1808, Pound in 2008
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
It's great to hear--and it's quite amazing to me!--
that there are so many young people, not necessarily
in college, who are taking to Pound. I can't figure
out how that could be happening--simply because of EP's
difficulty; enough of a turn-off even for most college
profs. But throughout my career it's always amazed
me where Pound aficionados turn up. When I lived in
Spain there was a Spanish sub-administrator who
worked for the World Bank who was addicted to EP
(in English!)--and then there was my English-
speaking Spanish friend Miguel, who was studying to
be a Merchant Marine officer, who could quote
passages to me from the Pisans. Anyway, I like
being amazed.
==DP
At 07:44 PM 1/27/98 -0500, you wrote:
>i'm a hack poet who's never been to college.
>i don't drink (or use any drugs for that matter).
>i hate the computer, but love to use it for resources like this (which,
>dispite my tone, i am enjoying so far).
>-all- of my friends enjoy pound. we range from philosopher/poet types, to
>painters, to silly punk kids. we read him, talk about him, are influeced, etc.
>few of us are in school.
>all of us read.
>jeff.
>
>>By the way, when I facetiously mention
>>"the twenty-nothing and thirty-
>>nothing generation that has hardly even heard of
>>[EP]," I am certainly not implicating literate
>>grad students like Erin T. but rather the whole
>>[de-]generation of audiophilic, bibliophobic
>>digerati who are more likely to learn via the
>>Net--which is our current substitute for
>>Authority and even God--than from old-fart, my-
>>generational media like paper.
>>
>>Dan P
>>
>>>
>>>Dan Pearlman thought out loud:
>>>
>>>>>if the Cantos were to become available
>>>in hypertext format on the 'Net (infinite Borgesian
>>>links, etc.) we would see a tremendous upsurge in
>>>interest in EP among the twenty-nothing and thirty-
>>>nothing generation that has hardly even heard of
>>>him. ND might be smart to offer, let's say, the
>>>first 30 Cantos in this format on the Net for
>>>free and hope to rope in buyers of a CD-hypertext
>>>version of the whole work. Maybe even the book
>>>itself.<<
>>>
>>>Perfect. I hope they start tomorrow. I reckon we got the 20th century
>>>wrong. We might as well line up again at the starting gate.
>>>
>>>regards,
>>>
>>>Harold Rhenisch
>>>[log in to unmask]
>>>
>>Dan Pearlman
>>Department of English
>>University of Rhode Island
>>Kingston, RI 02881
>>
>>[Latest book: novel, BLACK FLAMES, White Pine Press, 1997]
>>
>>Tel.: (home) 401 453-3027
>> (office) 401 874-4659
>>Fax: 401 874-2580
>>Internet: [log in to unmask]
>>
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> There are no hierarchies, no infinite, no such many as mass,
> there are only
> eyes in all heads
> to be looked out of
>
> -charles olson, from "letter 6" (of the
maximus poems)
>
Dan Pearlman
Department of English
University of Rhode Island
Kingston, RI 02881
[Latest book: novel, BLACK FLAMES, White Pine Press, 1997]
Tel.: (home) 401 453-3027
(office) 401 874-4659
Fax: 401 874-2580
Internet: [log in to unmask]
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 02:22:32 -0500
Reply-To: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Jonathan Morse <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: More on Mullins
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
It turns out that the University of Hawaii library holds Mullins' _This
Difficult Individual, Ezra Pound_ (New York: Fleet Publishing Corp., 1961).
Some first impressions:
Physically, the book looks like the typical product of a marginal
publishing house: on paper just one grade better than newsprint, flimsily
bound, lacking a table of contents. It obviously wasn't copy-edited,
either; just on my first scan, I noticed that Mullins had confused Wilfred
Owen with Wilfrid Wilson Gibson and seemed unaware that Amy Lowell's _A
Critical Favor_ was an _hommage_ to James Russell Lowell's _A Fable for
Critics_.
There are some right-wing innuendoes, too: stuff about Alexander Del Mar
and dark hints along the lines of, "The only thing that prevents the
American people from reading Pound is the fear that knowledge may be more
challenging than slavery" (366). On the other hand, we owe Mullins for
smuggling a camera into St. Elizabeths, strictly against the rules, taking
some fascinating pictures of Pound in situ, and publishing them here.
Biographers have secured their places in literary history for less than that.
--
Jonathan Morse
Department of English
University of Hawaii at Manoa
[log in to unmask]
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 02:42:30 -0500
Reply-To: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Patricia Cockram <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Pope in 1808, Pound in 2008
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 04:56 PM 1/27/98 -0500, Erin Templeton wrote:
><snip>
>
I hardly think that the reason younger scholars and stdents of
>literature have "hardly even heard of [Pound]" is because the Cantos aren't
>available on the Web. While electronic access might be convenient, it isn't
>preventing students and aspiring scholars from reading EP. Perhaps a more
>likely reason is his conspicuous absence from the classroom--whether because
>his poetry is "too difficult" or because many instructors find his politics
>distasteful or inappropriate for the classroom.
<snip>
This is true. There are professors who refuse to teach Pound. In my
graduate school, though Pound has been on the syllabus in many Modernist
courses, he has often not had a big place. In one case, my 1-hour
presentation was the only coverage he got; in another the professor asked me
to stand in and teach Pound (2 sessions). We have courses offered in single
authors, from Chaucer to Morrison, and in single books (Ulysses, for
example), but there has never been a whole course offered here in Pound.
Those of us who want to do serious work on him often have to do so alone or
with minimal help. Hooray for the Pound list!
Patricia
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 12:51:20 GMT
Reply-To: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
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From: Sarah Graham <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: availability of Pound
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I've been following the discussion of Pound's appeal to 'younger' readers
with interest/amusement. One thing I might add, as a UK-dwelling Pound
reader, is that, despite all the references to the wide availability of
Pound's work (in the US I assume), getting his work is a real problem here.
Even though the Faber catalogue lists a few texts, they are not actually in
print. I have spoken to the guy at Faber who handles Pound for the UK and he
told me that there is little or no demand here for his work, and I should
try to get what I need from the US. This means that none of Pound's prose is
in print here, and what texts are available are often not stocked in
bookshops, i.e. a basic _Selected Poems_ and a rather pricey edition of
_Cantos_ (thankfully, I picked up my copy 2nd-hand) ... For example, I had
to order _Personae_ (the N.D. ed.) from the US and it cost me the equivalent
of $25 ... I have had to pick up what biogs. and critical material I can 2nd
hand or remaindered. Of course, I have the University library (and I don't
seem to be competing with anyone else in the Pound section!) but of course I
want my copies of so many things ... I do use Amazon Books now, but then I
know what I'm looking for, more or less - what hope for the casual browser
in the poetry section of a *real* bookshop?
Thanks for the input on Pound biogs. recently: Carpenter does seem to come
out on top, but with 2 new works in the pipeline (does anyone know when?)
his position may be under threat. As for the Wilhelm trilogy (2nd favourite
at the moment) I'll have to throw myself at the mercy of the British Library
if I'm ever going to get a look at them!
Sarah
***************************************
** How shall we know all the friends **
** whom we meet on strange roadways? **
***************************************
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 09:32:03 -0400
Reply-To: [log in to unmask]
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From: Cameron McWhirter <[log in to unmask]>
Organization: The Cincinnati Enquirer
Subject: Re: availability of Pound
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re sarah graham's problems with finding pound in the UK.
first, on one level, finding modernist poetry in any u.s. or u.k.
bookstore is somewhat of a problem anyway. my wife is a buyer for a
large independent that has stores in Ohio, Kentucky and Tenn. Not
exactly Boston, New Haven, New York, but the stores do well and they
stock an impressive assortment of stuff. its the only bookstore i have
ever seen that had a hardback copy of the complete Maximus poems on the
shelf. BUT not surprisingly: poetry does not sell well at all, so
stocking it is less and less a priority for a company out to make a
profit.Thank God for New Directions all these years, or all of this
stuff would have gone out of the general circulation a long time ago.
Second, difficulty in finding Pound's work today i think is in perfect
keeping with Pound's position in our consumer culture. The same was true
throughout his lifetime. Thumb through Gallup: example, Cathay, 1915,
had 1,000 copies. 1000 copies? lined up against the mainstream "poets"
of the day, that was chicken feed. Today, the Cantos probably sell 1,000
copies throughout the U.S. every year. Line that up against the latest
Dilbert cartoon book or another "how to get ahead in business"
masterwork.
Third, I have a decent collection of pound's work, and most of these
books I picked up at used book stores. At the Strand, in New York City,
which claims to be the largest bargain bookstore, I have found several
copies of Faber Pound books discounted dramatically. Example: Literary
Essays. I can only assume they were shipped to the U.S. in bulk after
they failed to sell in the U.K.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 10:04:56 -0500
Reply-To: [log in to unmask]
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From: Jon Ausubel <[log in to unmask]>
Organization: Cecil Community College
Subject: Pound (not) in the academy
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The thread on Pound's appearance on undergraduate/graduate syllabi, I
think, has both missed and hit the mark variously.
I myself am a well-seasoned vet of both undergrad. and grad. classes in
Modern lit. Only in one of these classes (at U of Toronto--a huge
department with dozens of courses offered each term) has Pound received
significant time. I think the reason, though, has less to do with
supposed objections to politics/morals than with much more mundane
fact: Pound is hard, and given the increasingly "survey" nature of both
introductory and advanced courses because of the demolition of "the
canon," I believe many teachers find it irresponsible to devote large
blocks of time to ANY writer/work. And more, this seems rarely to be
what students demand.
As for observations that few in their 20s and 30s have ever heard of
Pound, I would offer that few of any age have heard of anyone we might
consider important. Certainly, when I began my BA, and even when I was
half-way through, even though I attended an "excellent" high school, I
hadn't heard of Pound, Stevens, H.D., Lawrence, Pynchon, etc. This
situation, I fear, is likely to get worse (from my perspective, at
least): at the institution where I took my Ph.D., poetry classes
increasingly seem "appreciative" or writer-oriented. Modernists retire
(or die) and are replaced by Post-colonialists, Chicano/Chicana experts,
and other "fashionable" scholars, but I suspect it has always been thus.
By the by, for those who have complained about the hideous state of
Pound scholarship, I offer this self-plug:
dissertation: An Intention to Say Something: Chinese Written
Characters and the Visual in Ezra Pound's _Cantos_ and Critics (1996)
article forthcoming in _Paideuma_: Three Functions and Some Forgery:
(Mis)uses of Visual Poetics in Pound s Cantos
Jon Ausubel
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 15:53:54 GMT
Reply-To: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
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From: Sarah Graham <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: availability of Pound
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At 09:32 28/01/98 -0400, you wrote:
>difficulty in finding Pound's work today i think is in perfect
>keeping with Pound's position in our consumer culture. The same was true
>throughout his lifetime.
Thanks ... it's good to know that - in a small way - I'm experiencing
something of the indifference Pound himself suffered; much more *authentic*
to have to spend half my income on ordering his books from the US than to
have them handily in a British bookshop at a reasonable price!
Sarah.
***************************************
** How shall we know all the friends **
** whom we meet on strange roadways? **
***************************************
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 11:16:47 -0500
Reply-To: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
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From: "Jonathan P. Gill" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: POUND and Monica Lewinsky
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Did anyone note that Monica Lewinsky cited Pound on her high school
yearbook page? She obviously didn't school her friend the President in
Pound's economics, since he wants to use the federal budget surplus to
protect Social Security, as opposed to giving it back to taxpayers--the
latter would, I guess, be the kind of "dividend" that Pound thought good
government could offer its citizens.
Jonathan Gill
Columbia University
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 11:08:46 EST
Reply-To: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
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From: Sarah Catherine Holmes <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Pound/Borah
I've got three things I'd like to put forth. First, I'd like to say hi to the
fine Pound scholars I met at MLA. Second, I'd like to say that I think it's im
portant to read a variety of writers, Pound AND those "post-colonialists" and "
Chicano/Chicana experts." Third, as some of you know, I have just finished edi
ting the letters between Pound and Senator Borah and will start the busy work o
f scanning the letters into the computer, etc. However, there are some referen
ces that are stumping me, and I thought it would be most efficient to put them
on the list to see if anyone can help. They are, as follows:
1) In one letter, Pound writes that "There isn't a contemporary newspaper in th
e U.S/ A Hardboiled newspaper ex manager in N.Y. was very keen on starting one.
He suggested gettin money from Woodin, Wiggin, and Barney Baruch!!"
My question is, who is this "hardboiled newspaper ex manager"?
2) Pound makes reference to a "Gamaliel." I think he's talking about the Bibl
ical character, but I'm wondering ifthere was someone else with that name that
he could have known/heard about.
3) Pound makes reference to a French newspaper (maybe a magazine) entitled VU.
Is that the full name or an abbreviation. If so, what is the full title?
4) In discussing news that was kept out of court at Geneva (in liberations over
Italy/Abyssinian crisis), Pound writes that he has had "viva voce from Rocke."
Who is Rocke? I have some ideas, but I'm really unsure.
5) Pound mentions a British man named Grigg. The names sound familar, but I ca
n't place it! Who is he? A correspondent of Pound's?
6) Has anyone heard of companies by the name of Whitwood or Whitworth? They mi
ght be chemical companies, but I'm not sure.
7) I'm wondering if the Newspaper, the MERCANTILE, was out of Italy or another
place?
8) Who is Nyland? I know he is somehow affiliated with Crate Larkin (a writer
on Social Credit), but I don't have a first name or profession.
9) Who is Chas. E. Scott Wood?
10) Who wrote a chapter of a book called "Working Day"? Pound? Douglas? Someon
e else? Again, it sounds familar, but I can't place it.
11) What is Thysson? I think it was a munitions company, but I'd like to be su
re.
And that's it. If anyone can help, I'd appreciate it.
--Sarah Holmes, U of RI
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 09:07:42 -0800
Reply-To: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Jacob Korg <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Pope in 1808, Pound in 2008
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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Dearlaura and Jeff: Some guides to Pound that I think you will find
accessible are:
Witemeyer -- for the early poems
George Kearns - Guide to EP's Selected Cantos
Michael Alexander - The Poetic Achievement of EP
(with good bibliography)
But the Cantos do take some plugging -- not all good -- though
Pound said to read quickly. But you can do that only if you know
everything he knew.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 09:14:31 -0800
Reply-To: "W. Freind" <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "W. Freind" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Pound/Borah
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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On Wed, 28 Jan 1998, Sarah Catherine Holmes wrote:
>
> 2) Pound makes reference to a "Gamaliel." I think he's talking about the Bibl
> ical character, but I'm wondering ifthere was someone else with that name that
> he could have known/heard about.
Probably Warren Gamaliel Harding. Now give me a cut of the royalties.
Bill Freind
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 12:21:16 -0500
Reply-To: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
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From: sylvester pollet <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Pound/Borah
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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>2) Pound makes reference to a "Gamaliel." I think he's talking about the
>Bibl
>ical character, but I'm wondering ifthere was someone else with that name that
>he could have known/heard about.
>
Isn't that the "G." of Warren G. Harding? But w/o context, just a
guess. Best, Sylvester
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 13:37:03 -0500
Reply-To: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
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From: Tim Romano <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: POUND and Monica Lewinsky
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"Paganism included a certain attitude toward; a certain
understanding of, coitus, which is the mysterium..."
-- E.P. "Religio", from The Townsman, 1939.
Jonathan P. Gill wrote:
>
> Did anyone note that Monica Lewinsky cited Pound on her high school
> yearbook page? She obviously didn't school her friend the President in
> Pound's economics, since he wants to use the federal budget surplus to
> protect Social Security, as opposed to giving it back to taxpayers--the
> latter would, I guess, be the kind of "dividend" that Pound thought good
> government could offer its citizens.
>
> Jonathan Gill
> Columbia University
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 13:34:23 EST
Reply-To: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
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From: Sarah Catherine Holmes <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Pound/Borah ii
Thanks for the responses thus far. I tried to provide context when possible, b
ut often Pound (as many editors and readers of his letters know) just sort of p
lops names in his letters, so they really don't have a context. Except, of cou
rse, there are the larger contexts: he's writing to Borah to convince him to be
come an advocate of Social Credit, to convince him that Mussolini was right in
invading Abyssinia, and to convince him to run for President. Anyway, help whe
re you can, and I'll take it from there.
Sarah H.
p.s.: For those of you interested in the tendency of Pound to make obscure refe
rences, Barry Ahearn addresses that quite well in his Intro to the Pound/Cummin
gs letters.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 12:07:16 -0500
Reply-To: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
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From: Timothy P Redman <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: on Nesta Webster
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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It is Mr. Akiyoshi Miyake; the other, as yet better know Poundian is
Ms. Miyake.
Tim Redman
School of Arts and Humanities, JO 31
University of Texas at Dallas
P.O. Box 830688
Richardson, TX 75083-0688
(972) 883-2775 (o)
(972) 883-2989 (fax)
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 14:33:01 -0500
Reply-To: Robert E Kibler <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "Robert E. Kibler" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: POUND and Monica Lewinsky
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On Wed, 28 Jan 1998 13:37:03 -0500 wrote...
>"Paganism included a certain attitude toward; a certain
>understanding of, coitus, which is the mysterium..."
>-- E.P. "Religio", from The Townsman, 1939.
>
Please tell more. What did Monica say about E.P.?
>Jonathan P. Gill wrote:
>>
>> Did anyone note that Monica Lewinsky cited Pound on her high school
>> yearbook page? She obviously didn't school her friend the President in
>> Pound's economics, since he wants to use the federal budget surplus to
>> protect Social Security, as opposed to giving it back to taxpayers--the
>> latter would, I guess, be the kind of "dividend" that Pound thought good
>> government could offer its citizens.
>>
>> Jonathan Gill
>> Columbia University
>
>
Robert E. Kibler
Department of English
University of Minnesota
[log in to unmask]
fortunatus et ille, deos qui novit agrestis,
Panaque Silvanumque senem Nymphasque sorores.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 14:43:39 -0500
Reply-To: Robert E Kibler <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "Robert E. Kibler" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Pound/Borah ii
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On Wed, 28 Jan 1998 13:34:23 EST wrote...
>
Dropping obscure references in letters to Borah, or referring to names and
places by their alternative or more esoteric names is a habit Pound picks up,
or at least finds modelled in Callimachus, Alexandrian poet who was the hero of
the 1st centry B.C. Roman elegists such as Propertius (Shades of Callimachus).
Callimachus was the librarian in the Alexandrian library, and because he had so
many reference texts available, and because as a poet and a scholar he scorned
the unlearned audience, he would refer to Cybele as the 'queen of Dindymus,'
for example, for a place where she was famous. Doing so for Callimachus, and
for Pound, kept the bar high--here again is the reason for Pound's small
showing, even at the university.
Thanks for the responses thus far. I tried to provide context when possible, b
>ut often Pound (as many editors and readers of his letters know) just sort of
p
>lops names in his letters, so they really don't have a context. Except, of
cou
>rse, there are the larger contexts: he's writing to Borah to convince him to
be
>come an advocate of Social Credit, to convince him that Mussolini was right in
>invading Abyssinia, and to convince him to run for President. Anyway, help
whe
>re you can, and I'll take it from there.
>
>Sarah H.
>p.s.: For those of you interested in the tendency of Pound to make obscure
refe
>rences, Barry Ahearn addresses that quite well in his Intro to the
Pound/Cummin
>gs letters.
>
>
Robert E. Kibler
Department of English
University of Minnesota
[log in to unmask]
fortunatus et ille, deos qui novit agrestis,
Panaque Silvanumque senem Nymphasque sorores.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 15:12:14 -0500
Reply-To: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
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From: Erin Templeton <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Pound Guides
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I'd add that the Froula gulde to ND's _Selected Poems_ is also helpful; I
just wish she'd done more! While I'm here, anyone know of an article or
book that provides an overview of the Cantos--something that gives the "lay
of the land"? I am trying to put together a Pound overview presentation
for non-modernist grad students, and I am looking for something between a
Norton introduction and the highly specialized sources that would be a bit
overwhelming. Any suggestions would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Erin
Erin E. Templeton
Pennsylvania State University
Department of English
[log in to unmask]
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 16:01:33 -0500
Reply-To: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
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<[log in to unmask]>
From: Willard Goodwin <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Sheri Martinelli
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Pursuant to ubi sunt ...
About Sheri Martinelli, there is the engaging memoir by Anatole Broyard,
_Kafka Was the Rage: a Greenwich Village Memoir_. 1st ed. New York: Carol
Southern Books, an imprint of Crown Publishers, 1993, and now reprinted in
paperback, New York: Vintage Books, 1997. Broyard includes a long
description, about 90 pp., of his affair with one "Sheri Donatti," a
bohemian painter, in New York during the late forties. It's Sheri
Martinelli all right. Broyard's informative account makes for a funny, sad,
sexy, and interesting story. At that same time a rival, William Gaddis, was
also in love with Sheri, but Broyard prevailed. I believe Gaddis portrays
them in his first novel _The Recognitions_ (New York: Harcourt, Brace,
1955). I was alerted to all of this by Henry Louis Gates, Jr., in a Life &
Letters piece about Broyard in _The New Yorker_ (17 June 1996).
A much older Sheri (weirdly veiled and mysterious, as witnessed in Orono
some years ago) is the model for a character in Larry McMurtry's _Dead
Man's Walk_ (New York: Simon & Schuster, 1995). McMurtry's book is one of a
quartet of novels about nineteenth century Texas, a Great Western, begun in
1985 with the Pulitzer Prize winning _Lonesome Dove_. I once had the very
good fortune to ride with McMurtry over that Jornada del Muerta from Los
Angeles to Austin. I recognized him in the airport; we sat together on the
flight and talked about the novels, the subsequent TV mini-series, and
about the antiquarian book trade (McMurtry has been an antiquarian book
dealer for many years, proprietor of the Washington D.C. shop Booked-Up). I
must have mentioned Pound, because McMurtry then described to me how Sheri
arrived at his shop in Washington one day, in a Winnebago camper, wanting
to sell Pound manuscripts, letters, etc. Apparently she was rather
eccentric, covered in black veils and such; and that apparition stayed with
McMurtry until he reconstructed her in the character of Lady Carey, and
English noblewoman in _Dead Man's Walk_.
-Will Goodwin.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 16:38:23 -0500
Reply-To: Robert E Kibler <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "Robert E. Kibler" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Sheri Martinelli
MIME-Version: 1.0
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On Wed, 28 Jan 1998 16:01:33 -0500 wrote...
>
thanks very much. a stunningly original and memorable character, it seems.
Pursuant to ubi sunt ...
>
>About Sheri Martinelli, there is the engaging memoir by Anatole Broyard,
>_Kafka Was the Rage: a Greenwich Village Memoir_. 1st ed. New York: Carol
>Southern Books, an imprint of Crown Publishers, 1993, and now reprinted in
>paperback, New York: Vintage Books, 1997. Broyard includes a long
>description, about 90 pp., of his affair with one "Sheri Donatti," a
>bohemian painter, in New York during the late forties. It's Sheri
>Martinelli all right. Broyard's informative account makes for a funny, sad,
>sexy, and interesting story. At that same time a rival, William Gaddis, was
>also in love with Sheri, but Broyard prevailed. I believe Gaddis portrays
>them in his first novel _The Recognitions_ (New York: Harcourt, Brace,
>1955). I was alerted to all of this by Henry Louis Gates, Jr., in a Life &
>Letters piece about Broyard in _The New Yorker_ (17 June 1996).
>
>A much older Sheri (weirdly veiled and mysterious, as witnessed in Orono
>some years ago) is the model for a character in Larry McMurtry's _Dead
>Man's Walk_ (New York: Simon & Schuster, 1995). McMurtry's book is one of a
>quartet of novels about nineteenth century Texas, a Great Western, begun in
>1985 with the Pulitzer Prize winning _Lonesome Dove_. I once had the very
>good fortune to ride with McMurtry over that Jornada del Muerta from Los
>Angeles to Austin. I recognized him in the airport; we sat together on the
>flight and talked about the novels, the subsequent TV mini-series, and
>about the antiquarian book trade (McMurtry has been an antiquarian book
>dealer for many years, proprietor of the Washington D.C. shop Booked-Up). I
>must have mentioned Pound, because McMurtry then described to me how Sheri
>arrived at his shop in Washington one day, in a Winnebago camper, wanting
>to sell Pound manuscripts, letters, etc. Apparently she was rather
>eccentric, covered in black veils and such; and that apparition stayed with
>McMurtry until he reconstructed her in the character of Lady Carey, and
>English noblewoman in _Dead Man's Walk_.
>
>-Will Goodwin.
>
>
Robert E. Kibler
Department of English
University of Minnesota
[log in to unmask]
fortunatus et ille, deos qui novit agrestis,
Panaque Silvanumque senem Nymphasque sorores.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 16:49:28 -0500
Reply-To: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
From: William Cole <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Pope in 1808, Pound in 2008
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Tue, 27 Jan 1998, Erin Templeton wrote:
> I hardly think that the reason younger scholars and stdents of
> literature have "hardly even heard of [Pound]" is because the Cantos aren't
> available on the Web. While electronic access might be convenient, it isn't
> preventing students and aspiring scholars from reading EP. Perhaps a more
> likely reason is his conspicuous absence from the classroom--whether because
> his poetry is "too difficult" or because many instructors find his politics
> distasteful or inappropriate for the classroom. As an undergraduate, I was
> always curious about Pound, but never got the chance to read him. It wasn't
> until my second semester of graduate school that I found his work on a
> syllabus, and even still, I find that the pre-dominant attitude among
> professors and students is one of grudging appreciation--yes, he was an
> important figure, but his poetry is difficult to understand and often best
> left to interested individuals with lots of free time and additional
> references. Availability of texts, in my opinion, isn't the problem--it's
> Pound's troubled position within the institution.
As another 20-almost-30-nothinger, I'll second Erin's observations. A lot
of academics just don't want to deal with Pound, especially when it comes
to the politics. Comments I've heard in my academic career (quotations
somewhat approximate):
"Social credit was an idea Pound got from Wyndham Lewis, who was a
fascist." (End of that topic)
"Who was that mentor of Eliot's who loved Mussolini?" (meaning Pound).
I think Pound, despite his difficulty, can be friendlier to non-academics,
especially by way of his often delightfully irreverent prose (I found
solace in the ABC of Economics during a bad unemployed period between grad
programs).
Back to lurk mode.
--WC
__________________________________________________________________
William Cole <[log in to unmask]>
Dept. of English
University of Georgia
"A sound poetic training is nothing more that the science of being
discontented." --Ezra Pound
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 18:36:01 -0500
Reply-To: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
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From: Daniel Pearlman <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Sheri Martinelli
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If you'd like another intimate view of Martinelli
by a guy who knew her, see Lee Lady's netsite at:
http://www2.hawaii.edu/~lady/faq/reviews/broyard.html#Sheri
Very fascinating stuff! ... Yes, I read the Broyard book.
A delightful read. I always wondered what was under that
veil.
==Dan Pearlman
At 04:01 PM 1/28/98 -0500, you wrote:
>Pursuant to ubi sunt ...
>
>About Sheri Martinelli, there is the engaging memoir by Anatole Broyard,
>_Kafka Was the Rage: a Greenwich Village Memoir_. 1st ed. New York: Carol
>Southern Books, an imprint of Crown Publishers, 1993, and now reprinted in
>paperback, New York: Vintage Books, 1997. Broyard includes a long
>description, about 90 pp., of his affair with one "Sheri Donatti," a
>bohemian painter, in New York during the late forties. It's Sheri
>Martinelli all right. Broyard's informative account makes for a funny, sad,
>sexy, and interesting story. At that same time a rival, William Gaddis, was
>also in love with Sheri, but Broyard prevailed. I believe Gaddis portrays
>them in his first novel _The Recognitions_ (New York: Harcourt, Brace,
>1955). I was alerted to all of this by Henry Louis Gates, Jr., in a Life &
>Letters piece about Broyard in _The New Yorker_ (17 June 1996).
>
>A much older Sheri (weirdly veiled and mysterious, as witnessed in Orono
>some years ago) is the model for a character in Larry McMurtry's _Dead
>Man's Walk_ (New York: Simon & Schuster, 1995). McMurtry's book is one of a
>quartet of novels about nineteenth century Texas, a Great Western, begun in
>1985 with the Pulitzer Prize winning _Lonesome Dove_. I once had the very
>good fortune to ride with McMurtry over that Jornada del Muerta from Los
>Angeles to Austin. I recognized him in the airport; we sat together on the
>flight and talked about the novels, the subsequent TV mini-series, and
>about the antiquarian book trade (McMurtry has been an antiquarian book
>dealer for many years, proprietor of the Washington D.C. shop Booked-Up). I
>must have mentioned Pound, because McMurtry then described to me how Sheri
>arrived at his shop in Washington one day, in a Winnebago camper, wanting
>to sell Pound manuscripts, letters, etc. Apparently she was rather
>eccentric, covered in black veils and such; and that apparition stayed with
>McMurtry until he reconstructed her in the character of Lady Carey, and
>English noblewoman in _Dead Man's Walk_.
>
>-Will Goodwin.
>
Dan Pearlman
Department of English
University of Rhode Island
Kingston, RI 02881
[Latest book: novel, BLACK FLAMES, White Pine Press, 1997]
Tel.: (home) 401 453-3027
(office) 401 874-4659
Fax: 401 874-2580
Internet: [log in to unmask]
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Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 19:18:35 -0500
Reply-To: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
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From: laura and jeff <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Pope in 1808, Pound in 2008
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>Dearlaura and Jeff:
just jeff. laura is my partner -- the person actually attending school here.
>Some guides to Pound that I think you will find
>accessible are:
> Witemeyer -- for the early poems
> George Kearns - Guide to EP's Selected Cantos
> Michael Alexander - The Poetic Achievement of EP
> (with good bibliography)
thanks. i'll check these out.
> But the Cantos do take some plugging -- not all good -- though
>Pound said to read quickly. But you can do that only if you know
>everything he knew.
i've read them somewhere in the neighborhood of ten times and have yet to
have any trouble. one of the most facinating things about the cantos is that
when i first read them (in high school-- is was 16 or 17) it didn't even
occur to me to look up any of the references. i just enjoyed them on a
purely emotional level. i understood most of the theories being put forth,
but they seemed secondary to the emotions that brought on those ideas. i
still believe this. i really think that it is intellection that gets in the
way of reading them for many people. they think that pounds poetry is -just-
intellectual and forget the things he said about imagism and the one liners
like: only emotion endures.
i think reading them in a state of virtual innocence has helped me
understand them even more in my adult life.
and so on...
jeff.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There are no hierarchies, no infinite, no such many as mass,
there are only
eyes in all heads
to be looked out of
-charles olson, from "letter 6" (of the maximus poems)
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 19:22:06 -0500
Reply-To: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
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From: laura and jeff <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Pope in 1808, Pound in 2008
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>And yet to be fair, mention Pound in a freshman survery course, and almost no
>one has heard of him. Is it really likely that those outside of the university
>or institution of higher ed are like you, or even as involved in the study and
>discussion of poets and poetry as is a bunch of freshman in a literary survey
>class? In my wildest dreams, your kind would be common. In Pound's wildest
>dreams--in Jeffersons dreams--the idea of the educated farmer--but the chief
>complaint about American and 20th century culture generally might be that the
>only place one can get exposure to thought, discussion, and a sense of who is
>who and what's what, is the university. The control that institution has on
>what is acceptable literary expression is appalling, but the greater problem is
>that it is just about the only game in town, barring a few collections of card
>playing, house painting poets here and there. Admit it--you are a rare bunch.
i used to think so. but i keep finding more and more people my age who are
not in school, and are interesting in what are typically considered
"intellectual" pursuits. i am involved in what is called the "hardcore
scene", which is the intellegent, engaged section of the punk rock scene.
this may account for what you see as unusual.
i do agree with you on the bit about the control of the university. which is
why, at this point, i've not wasted any time there. i'm not at all
interested in getting a degree in anything, i adore learning too much. the
combination of these things has so far kept me out. (of course my 1.6 gpa
from high school my have something to do with it as well [i did get a 32 on
my act]. it was so low because i couldn't care about what they wanted to
teach me for the 100th time... so i read every book on the college reading
list they gave me my sophmore year, and then some. pound, of course, was not
on that list.) i think this (university control) is so many people like
myself have strayed away from the university and made your freshman classes
dull. and my also acount for my knowing these people, while most people
older than we are ignorant of our existance.
or maybe i'm just special.
jeff.
ps- sorry for my "poet's tendency"-- that is ego: many references to myself.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There are no hierarchies, no infinite, no such many as mass,
there are only
eyes in all heads
to be looked out of
-charles olson, from "letter 6" (of the maximus poems)
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 19:33:05 -0500
Reply-To: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
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From: laura and jeff <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Pope in 1808, Pound in 2008
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in all this talk about pound in the academy, it's interesting to note:
the jack kerouac school of disembodies poetics (at the naropa institue in
colorado) has offered classes called: ezra pound. and: the cantos of ezra
pound. i guess it helps that the school was started by poets (allen ginsburg
/ anne waldman) and is still run by anne.
jeff.
>><snip>
>>
> I hardly think that the reason younger scholars and stdents of
>>literature have "hardly even heard of [Pound]" is because the Cantos aren't
>>available on the Web. While electronic access might be convenient, it isn't
>>preventing students and aspiring scholars from reading EP. Perhaps a more
>>likely reason is his conspicuous absence from the classroom--whether because
>>his poetry is "too difficult" or because many instructors find his politics
>>distasteful or inappropriate for the classroom.
><snip>
>
>This is true. There are professors who refuse to teach Pound. In my
>graduate school, though Pound has been on the syllabus in many Modernist
>courses, he has often not had a big place. In one case, my 1-hour
>presentation was the only coverage he got; in another the professor asked me
>to stand in and teach Pound (2 sessions). We have courses offered in single
>authors, from Chaucer to Morrison, and in single books (Ulysses, for
>example), but there has never been a whole course offered here in Pound.
>Those of us who want to do serious work on him often have to do so alone or
>with minimal help. Hooray for the Pound list!
>
>Patricia
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There are no hierarchies, no infinite, no such many as mass,
there are only
eyes in all heads
to be looked out of
-charles olson, from "letter 6" (of the maximus poems)
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 19:40:46 -0500
Reply-To: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
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From: laura and jeff <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: availability of Pound
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>my wife is a buyer for a
>large independent that has stores in Ohio, Kentucky and Tenn.
what store?? i'm currently stuck in wooster, ohio.
...
the store: wooster book company here carries a little bit of everything.
they usually have persona and the cantos in stock, as well as things by
olson, creeley, waldman, williams, et al. but being a town where the only
people who are not hicks or rich are intellectuals (the profs), who are also
the only middle class. (if you want a brilliant example of what capitalism
is coming to, come to wooster ohio-- -huge- lower class, a few upper class,
and even fewer middle class. very interesting.)
jeff.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There are no hierarchies, no infinite, no such many as mass,
there are only
eyes in all heads
to be looked out of
-charles olson, from "letter 6" (of the maximus poems)
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 02:19:23 +0100
Reply-To: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
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From: Piet Wesselman <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: availability of Pound
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At 19:40 28-1-98 -0500, you wrote:
>>my wife is a buyer for a
>>large independent that has stores in Ohio, Kentucky and Tenn.
>
>what store?? i'm currently stuck in wooster, ohio.
If you would not mind some commercial interlude on this: I am a bookseller
who happens also to be an avid reader of poetry, and Ezra Pound is one of my
favourites. As English is not my native tongue I am also very much
interested in commentaries that helped me in reading Pound. I am a very
interested lurker on this list and thank you all for your helpfull
commentaries and suggestions.
For those of you in the USA it may be helpful to have a look at
http://www.interloc.com, a search service for antiquarian and out of print
books by book dealers in the US.
I have some books on and by Pound for sale as well. These can be found at my
web page http://www.xs4all.nl/~pwessel/books/pound.html and in the
searchable database at http://www.antiqbook.nl/books/ These are at this time
different sets as I am in the process of entering more books; I intended to
inform you when I finished them all. Please ask for titles you do not see at
this moment. I do not have any separate early first editions :-(
My hopes are that you are not offended by this blatantly commercial message.
To appease you I offer a discount of 10 percent to any reader of EPOUND-L.
Just mention that you saw this message (Alas, this does not apply to the
huge Pound collection I have on offer for a customer...).
Kind regards,
Piet Wesselman
________________________________________________________________________
De Nederlandse Letteren: http://www.letteren.nl/
Book Lovers: http://www.xs4all.nl/~pwessel/
Antiqbook: NAN http://www.antiqbook.nl/
email: [log in to unmask]
________________________________________________________________________
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Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 10:36:21 +0900
Reply-To: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
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From: akiyoshi miyake <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: A second trial on Nesta Webster
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To Dan Pearlman and Jeff
Thank you for your response.
dpearl>I don't understand why Ms. Miyake....
As Tim Redman correctly points out(Thanks, Tim), I am not the author of
_Ezra Pound and the Mysteries of Love_, which was written by Akiko Miyake.
We are both Japanese, and our names happen to be similar, but Akiko is a
female famous senior scholar, while I am a not-so-young kindergarten boy.
dpearl>I don't understand why Ms. Miyake assumes that
dpearl>Pound would have had to read a particular book,
dpearl>by Webster or anyone, in 1940 to have formed
dpearl>antisemitic opinions
I am afraid I couldn't have myself understood. let me try again.
"In 1940" is Surette's conjecture, not mine,(though I do not know how
important he thinks the book is to Pound). I suspect Pound read the book
earlier, say, early in 1930s, not in 1940 or later.
Here are factual data from _Ezra Pound and Italian Fascism_ by Tim Redman
and _The Birth of Modernism_ by Leon Surette:
1)Pound read the _Protocols_ in 1940. His copy is unmarked, but he
mentioned it in his several letters at that time(Redman 202).
2)Pound did read the Webster's book. The copy in his library is "heavily
marked in Pound's hand"(Surette 47).
3)As far as I know, no one, including Redman and Surette, reports that
Pound mentioned the book by Webster in any of his letters. It seems that
he did not mention it.
4)Surette conjectures that Pound read Webster's book around 1940. His
dating is founded on the fact 1)( see Surette 23).
5) The Protocols was a famous forgery, while Webster's book pretended to
be scholarly and critical, though it is now a well-known "Jew conspiracy" fantasy.
It is strange to me that Pound read the two book in the same year and
only mentioned the one, which is unmarked, and not the other, which is
heavily marked. So, I suspect he read the latter earlier, late in 1920s
or early in 1930s, when it seems to have interested the poet (it is
heavily marked) more than in 1940. But I have no evidence. So, I asked
the question in my last letter.
WEISERLE> i've always just figured that the anti-semitism
WEISERLE>came from his cultural heritage, was strengthened by his growing
WEISERLE> interest in money, and -then- influenced by books or what not.
I agree with Jeff above if the items are enumerated in temporal order,
but not always if in atemporal absolute one. It is most unlikely that
young boys be influenced by parents or by local intellectual environment
less than by books, while it is as much unlikely that a person of 45 or
55 years old remains to be influenced only by the ambience during his/her
childhood, and not by books. In the case of Pound, his anti-semitism
became more and more vehement after around 1930. Interest in money is
clearly one of the driving forces. But I guess he was probably influenced
by some "Jew conspiracy" book also. And I believe that if the poet read
the book by Webster when he was on an early stage of his anti-semitism,it
would have exerted an influence on him. May be it drove him up to the
next stage, or it confirmed his hitherto wobbly belief in conspiracy
theory.But I have no evidence on the dating, so, i asked the question.
Now, let me ask the same question in different manners:
1)When did Pound and John Drummond become close friends, so close that
Drummond gave his copy of Webster's book to Pound, who marked the book
heavily.
2)Did not Pound write to Drummond in which he thanked him for the book?
I ask these questions because it is Drummond's copy that stands heavily
marked in Pound's hand on the shelf of the poet's library(Surette 47).
3)When was the fouth edition of the book published? The marked copy is a
fouth edition(Surette 47).
I will be grateful if someone answer any of the questions.
akiyoshi miyake
home:[log in to unmask]
office:[log in to unmask]
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Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 21:10:20 -0500
Reply-To: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
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From: Leon Surette <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: on Nesta Webster
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I guess I should respond to Akiyoshi Miyake's query. What connectiion if any
do you, Akiyoshi, have with my friend, Akiko Myake?
Let me first point out that the book in question is in Pound's
library at Brunnenberg and is well marked by a reader. In the hardback
edition of BIRTH I erroneously said that the marks were in Pound's hand.
They are, in fact, in another hand -- whose I do not know. The book belonged
to John Drummond, whom Pound set to "research" the Jewish question shortly
after he arrived in Rapallo in the late spring or summer of 1934, so it may
well be in his hand.
In addition we know that Pound read the Protocols, for he comments
on them in letters and in the radio broadcasts. He possessed a copy from
1936, but showed no interest in them until 1940, when he begins to comment
on them in correspondence. Certainly he did not learn of the Protocols from
Webster, nor do I clain that he did. However, I have not found any clear
evidence to date his reading of Webster, for he does not refer directly to
her. Indeed, he may never have read the book himself, but merely relied on
verbal reports from Drummond.
However, I have very good information about the provenance of his
anti-Semitic attitudes, and they are exhaustively documented in a book now
under consideration. Weabster was not the source of those sentiments.
I might add that I am more than a little distressed at some of the
responses to Miyake's query. Questions about Pound's attitude toward Jews
are both legitimate and in principle answerable on the basis of evidence. It
is absurd to assert that no evidence is needed since we know in our hearts
that Pound was innocent (or guilty). Nor is it helpful to take a page from
Hilary Clinton's book and attack anyone who is interested in ascetaining as
near as may be the truth of the matter. Like the rest of us, Pound was a
fallible human being whose attitudes, beliefs, and behaviour cannot be known
a priori.
Of course, Miyake operates from the same a priori presumptions in
his (her?) assertion that Pound would have rejected Webster's book as "a
mere ridiculous fantasy" if he had read it. I can assure you that he did
read several such ridiculous fantasies without rejecting them -- even
though I cannot be sure that he read -- or even had a report on -- Nesta
Webster.
I should add that I have far more information on the subject now
than I had when I wrote Birth -- most of it nearly a decade ago now.
At 06:12 AM 28/01/98 +0900, you wrote:
>Colleagues,
>I have a question on Nesta Webster. Leon Surette, in his _The Birth of
>Modernism_, conjectures that Pound read her_ Secret Societies and
>Subversive Movements_(pulshd in 1924) around 1940(Surette, 23, 47).
>But I am afraid his reasoning for the dating is not so persuasive.
>He points out that she identifies in an appendix the source of the
>_Protocols_ but that she asserts the plausibility of the forgery book,
>which the poet read in 1940. That is to say, Surette's dating is based
>on the assumption that reading Webster led to the immediate reading the
>_Protocols_.
>The assumption premises that Pound read Webster's book with interest.
>But her book finds(of course erroneously) in Pan-Germanic Movement one
>of the instruments "conspiratorial Jews" are maneuvering from behind the
>scenes. And around 1940 Social Nationalism was explicitly and fatally
>cruel to Jews and Jewish people, and Pound knew that. If the poet had
>read the book around that time, he would have believed that the book was
>a mere ridiculous fantasy. If he thought Webster was trustworthy,as
>he did, Pound had to read her earlier, when he was not interested in
>German policy against Jews.
>Is there someone who have evidence enough to fix the date of when the
>poet read Webster? I ask this question because the book is very important
>in its influence on the formation of Pound's anti-semitic thought.
>
>
>akiyoshi miyake
>home:[log in to unmask]
>office:[log in to unmask]
>
Leon Surette Home: 519-681-7787
Dept. of English Fax: 519-661-3776
The University of Western Ontario Email: [log in to unmask]
London, Ontario
N6A 3K7
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 21:31:40 -0500
Reply-To: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
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From: laura and jeff <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: just curious
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how did everyone become interested in pound?
myself:
my love of poetry eventually (and i'd think quite naturally) led me to him
at a young age (as i have already refered to).
just interested.
jeff.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There are no hierarchies, no infinite, no such many as mass,
there are only
eyes in all heads
to be looked out of
-charles olson, from "letter 6" (of the maximus poems)
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 21:40:25 -0500
Reply-To: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
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From: laura and jeff <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: A second trial on Nesta Webster
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>I agree with Jeff above if the items are enumerated in temporal order,
>but not always if in atemporal absolute one.
that is what i intended.
>It is most unlikely that
>young boys be influenced by parents or by local intellectual environment
>less than by books, while it is as much unlikely that a person of 45 or
>55 years old remains to be influenced only by the ambience during his/her
>childhood, and not by books.
this however, i'm not so sure:
i think the influence (esp in pound... his love and lasting firendship with
his folks throughout his life...) does remain a very important factor if not
checked. but i agree tho that it would not be the only influence.
>In the case of Pound, his anti-semitism
>became more and more vehement after around 1930. Interest in money is
>clearly one of the driving forces. But I guess he was probably influenced
>by some "Jew conspiracy" book also. And I believe that if the poet read
>the book by Webster when he was on an early stage of his anti-semitism,it
>would have exerted an influence on him. May be it drove him up to the
>next stage, or it confirmed his hitherto wobbly belief in conspiracy
>theory.
and thus it is built upon by the other influences over time. but this brings
up a whole other question: would pounds nagating of linear time undermine
this? did his belief in a non-linear mode of thinking sink in deep enough to
disrupt any kind of order like this?
trying to find that barb of time book...
jeff.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There are no hierarchies, no infinite, no such many as mass,
there are only
eyes in all heads
to be looked out of
-charles olson, from "letter 6" (of the maximus poems)
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 21:49:06 -0500
Reply-To: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
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From: laura and jeff <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: on Nesta Webster
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> However, I have very good information about the provenance of his
>anti-Semitic attitudes, and they are exhaustively documented in a book now
>under consideration. Weabster was not the source of those sentiments.
i am very interested in anything you may have on this matter. i am writting
an essay approaching pound from a political standpoint (as an anarchist). to
me reading the cantos are a "what not to do" book, when starting with the
love and compassion pound had. the cantos show how a beautiful and feeling
person can easily become neo-facist (even while insisting on human freedom)
because of the intinsity of feeling (sort of a eric hoffer true believer
sorta thing), with a bit of cultural bigotry thrown in at the base.
anyway...
jeff.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There are no hierarchies, no infinite, no such many as mass,
there are only
eyes in all heads
to be looked out of
-charles olson, from "letter 6" (of the maximus poems)
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 22:21:50 -0500
Reply-To: Robert E Kibler <[log in to unmask]>
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From: "Robert E. Kibler" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: just curious
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On Wed, 28 Jan 1998 21:31:40 -0500 wrote...
>
At about aged 20 I read his selected poems without knowing who he was. Later,
when i mentioned his name to someone as a good poet, I was shunned. did not
know why. Became interested. Found out that Pound and I shared interests in
classical antiquity, the middle ages, and Chinese philosophy and culture.
Further, I had read the American historian John Ridpath's eleven volume
encyclopedic set entitled "The History of the World,"(pub 1896, took me two
years) before going to college, so was, as I see it, first schooled outside of
the academy that Pound so heavily criticized. Another draw.
how did everyone become interested in pound?
>myself:
>my love of poetry eventually (and i'd think quite naturally) led me to him
>at a young age (as i have already refered to).
>just interested.
>jeff.
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
>
> There are no hierarchies, no infinite, no such many as mass,
> there are only
> eyes in all heads
> to be looked out of
>
> -charles olson, from "letter 6" (of the maximus
> poems)
>
>
Robert E. Kibler
Department of English
University of Minnesota
[log in to unmask]
fortunatus et ille, deos qui novit agrestis,
Panaque Silvanumque senem Nymphasque sorores.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 22:44:28 -0500
Reply-To: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
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From: Daniel Pearlman <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: on Surette to Miyake
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My compliments to Leon Surette on his brilliant
reply to Mr. Miyake.
==Dan Pearlman
Dan Pearlman
Department of English
University of Rhode Island
Kingston, RI 02881
[Latest book: novel, BLACK FLAMES, White Pine Press, 1997]
Tel.: (home) 401 453-3027
(office) 401 874-4659
Fax: 401 874-2580
Internet: [log in to unmask]
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 22:13:49 -0800
Reply-To: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
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From: Jim Strachan <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: just curious
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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At 09:31 PM 1/28/98 -0500, you wrote:
>how did everyone become interested in pound?
>myself:
>my love of poetry eventually (and i'd think quite naturally) led me to him
>at a young age (as i have already refered to).
>just interested.
>jeff.
Good general question; should get some of us other lurkers out here. My
first Pound experience was probably "Hugh Selwyn Mauberly" in college. That
would be back in '77 or '78. Earlier than this, in high school, I had a
very progressive grade 10 english teacher who showed us films on Ginsberg &
Ferlinghetti & played the records of Simon & Garfunkle, but did not, to the
best of my recollection, teach any Pound. I do remember Stevens' "Emperor
of Ice Cream" & stuff by e.e. cummings
My next major Pound experience was at SFU in Burnaby B.C., I never
participated at the institution, although I had a couple of friends who
took english with Robin Blaser (SFU & Pound lost out when Robin retired a
few yrs ago). (As an aside one of the friends continued to grad school -
his interest was Ford Maddox Ford - he dropped grad school...went to law
school...became a lawyer...hated being a lawyer & is now a born-again
anarchist with his own webpage. Sorry for the length of this aside.)Back to
the SFU thing: what it was was an extracurricular activity in which all
those students interested in a reading of the cantos would meet weekly, for
a year, with Robin as moderator & major reference & go through it canto by
canto...I sat in on a couple of those sessions. What I learned there was
that reading the cantos is an education...the ezuversity.
jim
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
>
> There are no hierarchies, no infinite, no such many as mass,
> there are only
> eyes in all heads
> to be looked out of
>
> -charles olson, from "letter 6" (of the
maximus poems)
>
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 18:23:55 +0900
Reply-To: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
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From: akiyoshi miyake <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re[2]: on Nesta Webster
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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To Leon,
Thank you for your informative response, which is very helpful to me.
lsurette>What connectiion if any
lsurette>do you, Akiyoshi, have with my friend, Akiko Myake?
Akiko is a close friend of mine, not a relative to me, though our last
name is the same. I respect her as the author of _EP and M of L_, and as
a leading Japanese Poundian. She has been living in Kobe, and I called
her and asked her if she was OK when that big earthquake broke out in
Kobe three years ago. Happily enough, her house was strong and she
survived it with no damage.
lsurette> Indeed, he may never have read the book himself, but merely relied on
lsurette>verbal reports from Drummond.
I see. Thank you for the information.
lsurette> However, I have very good information about the provenance of his
lsurette>anti-Semitic attitudes, and they are exhaustively documented in a book now
lsurette>under consideration.
Wonderful. I am looking forward to it. I believe myself one of good
readers of your books.
lsurette> Of course, Miyake operates from the same a priori presumptions in
lsurette>his (her?) assertion that Pound would have rejected Webster's book as "a
lsurette>mere ridiculous fantasy" if he had read it.
I did not mean that. I believed that the book by Webster was ridiculous
but dangerous but that Pound read it with interest. But the point was
dating. It seemed strange to me that he read it with interest in 1940,
when National Socialism was fatally cruel to Jews.As you know, the book
includes a chapter where she asserts that Pan-Germanic Movement is one
of the instruments with which Jews are planning to conquer the world,
which is contradictory to the German policies in 1940, and I believe
that Pound would have known better---even though I agree with you in that
"he did read several such ridiculous fantasies without rejecting them".
On the other hand, I think the book would have attracted the poet, if he
had read it early in 1930s. I believe my presumption is, at least, not a
priori.
But it is OK. It is meaningless now that I have that information from
you.
Let me thank you again.
Aki
akiyoshi miyake
[log in to unmask]
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Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 12:05:35 +0000
Reply-To: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
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From: R I Caddel <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: access to pound
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At school I was taught that Pound was nuts, you didn't need to read him,
Eliot, Auden and McNiece were the real poets. So as soon as I could I...
Access to Pound IS still a problem in the UK and I can confirm the earlier
message that it's hard to get even a basic collection from a bookshop, and
when you want to follow up you need a University Library, a poundian pal,
or some sleuthing skills. I think the new construction of most teaching
courses in the UK (shorter modules on broader topics, on the whole) also
mitigates against the kind of sustained attention which Pound asks for.
"Poetry is for interested people" sd Zukofsky.
Pound on the web isn't such an odd or futuristic idea: the Chadwyck-Healey
online full-text poetry project has just opened its "Modern Poetry" files
(including a complete Bunting) and I know they're planning to extend them
significantly. Ideally, this would allow classes to build their own
mini-anthologies of, say, modernism, and extend their reading around as
much as they pleased...
___________________________________________________________
Richard Caddel
Durham University Library, Stockton Rd., Durham DH1 3LY, UK
E-mail: [log in to unmask]
Phone: +44 (0)191 374 3044 Fax: +44 (0)191 374 7481
WWW: http://www.dur.ac.uk/~dul0ric
"Words! Pens are too light. Take a chisel to write."
- Basil Bunting
___________________________________________________________
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 10:09:09 -0500
Reply-To: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Burt Hatlen <[log in to unmask]>
Organization: University of Maine
Subject: Re: Pound/Borah
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I've been out sick for two days (since Tuesday around noon, and it's
now Thursday morning), and the EP list has been humming in my absence.
So I'm late in responding to your questions. But I have a few
suggestions.
Could the "French newspaper" called "VU" perhaps be the group of
Japanese poets that called themselves the VOU group, centered on Katue
Kitasano? Pound was writing to Kitasano in the late 1930s, around the
time he was writing to Borah.
Also, "The Working Day" is a chapter from Capital, by Karl Marx, volume
1. Pound cites this chapter many times.
And Charles Erskine Scott Wood was a popular American writer of the
1920s. A resident of California, I believe. Best known for a book
called Heavenly Discourse--a fantasy, I believe, perhaps in a Whitmanic
cadenced verse. But you'd want to check that out. Wood also published
a book of Indian tales that might have interested EP.
Burt Hatlen
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 10:18:47 -0500
Reply-To: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
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From: Burt Hatlen <[log in to unmask]>
Organization: University of Maine
Subject: Re: Pound Guides
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I think that Eva Hesse's introduction to New Approaches to EP (U of
California P, 1969) is still one of the best points of access to EP's
work. Also check out Christine Brooke-Rose's A ZBC of Ezra Pound.
Here is a very sophisticated literary theorist, reflecting on EP's
work. Or the section on Pound in Marjorie Perloff's Poetics of
Indeterminacy. Kenner's first book, The Poetry of Ezra Pound, is also
a good place to start, if you find The Pound Era overwhelming.
Burt Hatlen
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 10:19:54 -0500
Reply-To: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
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From: "Suzanne F. Kirby" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Just Curious
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>how did everyone become interested in pound?
>myself:
>my love of poetry eventually (and i'd think quite naturally) led me to him
>at a young age (as i have already refered to).
>just interested.
>jeff.
First off, thanks for asking! I've been reading this newsgroup for 6
months and this is the first time I've responded. Not because of lack of
interest I just feel that I'm not very qualified to participate - plus
everyone else seems to say it better than me.
I'm an English major at Virginia Tech (Blacksburg, Virginia). I
was introduced to Pound by a used book sale where I picked up the collected
poems for 50 cents. Soon afterwards I took a Modern Poetry class taught by
Tom Gardener and fell in love with Pound. While taking Poetry, I was also
studying Classical and Bibical Backgrounds as well as Medieval Literature.
I found the crossover to be amazing and embarked on a personal project to
study Dante's influence on the modernists poets (particularly Pound).
I, like many other people in the group, was drawn to the way Pound
uses myth in his poetry. Although I have many "favorite" poets Pound gets
read the most!
Suzanne
Suzanne F. Kirby
[log in to unmask]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The sun illuminates only the eye of the man, but shines into the eye and
the heart of the child"
- R.W. Emerson from "Nature"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 10:47:47 -0500
Reply-To: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
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From: Burt Hatlen <[log in to unmask]>
Organization: University of Maine
Subject: Re: just curious
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Dear Jeff,
Like you, I just read them. In my case, it happened when I was 19 years
old. The year was 1955, so at that time there were no guidebooks, etc.
(Kenner's first book had been published, but I didn't know that.)
However, I did know Bill Vasse, who was the teaching assistant in a
class that I took at the University of California, and who was perhaps
already at work on the first guide to the Cantos. Tom Parkinson, who
taught the class, was perhaps another influence. I remember Tom saying
in class that Pound doesn't necessarily assume that his readers have
read the Adams/Jefferson letters, but that he IS telling us that we
SHOULD go and read them. And after class, I went to the library, and
checked out the Adams/Jefferson letters, and read them.
So I think you're right: we need to get rid of the assumption that you
need some sort of critical guide before you can read the Cantos. (I
would say the same of Ulysses, which I read that same year, also in
total innocence of THE CRITICS.) EP demands of us that we come to terms
with a radically new way of engaging language and the sensory world.
We need to approach The Cantos as a poem, not as a code, to be
deciphered. I very much doubt that anyone will keep on reading The
Cantos, unless they respond in some way, directly and immediately, to
the language. If you (like Zukofsky and Duncan and lots of other
intelligent readers) fall in love with the language, then you'll keep
going. If not, then not. And nothing that any teacher or critic can do
will change that state of affairs.
But in the years since 1955, along with rereading The Cantos a good
many times, I've also read a fair amount of critical and biographical
commentary on Pound. Some of this reading has helped me to understand
WHY I found and find the language of EP's poetry so compelling. Some
of it has also helped me to understand how a poet whose work I find so
energizing could have slid into personal and political attitudes that I
find so repellent. And the best of it has helped me to think through
that contradiction between the poetry and the politics.
Burt Hatlen
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 09:41:40 -0800
Reply-To: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Jacob Korg <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Pound Guides
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Dear Professor Templeton: Try Chapter 8 of Michael Alexander's
"Achievement of EP"
On Wed, 28 Jan 1998, Erin Templeton wrote:
> I'd add that the Froula gulde to ND's _Selected Poems_ is also helpful; I
> just wish she'd done more! While I'm here, anyone know of an article or
> book that provides an overview of the Cantos--something that gives the "lay
> of the land"? I am trying to put together a Pound overview presentation
> for non-modernist grad students, and I am looking for something between a
> Norton introduction and the highly specialized sources that would be a bit
> overwhelming. Any suggestions would be appreciated.
> Thanks,
> Erin
>
>
> Erin E. Templeton
> Pennsylvania State University
> Department of English
> [log in to unmask]
>
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 13:45:40 -0500
Reply-To: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
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From: Erin Templeton <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: just curious
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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First of all, it's interesting to see how everyone else has become
interested in Pound.
I was introduced to his work in a graduate seminar titled Modernist Poets
in Conversation, which focused on the pairs Pound-Eliot and Stevens-Moore
and the artistic exchange between the poets. I took the course because I
was interested in Eliot and Stevens, having never read Pound or Moore, but
after reading some of _Spirit of Romance_ (the Whitman-watermelon part) I
was hooked, and began to wonder why Pound isn't taught or read more. In my
previous experience, he wasn't even so much dismissed as just plain absent.
I am glad to see that their is a friendly Pound community out there
though--despite my earlier remarks re: Pound and Pope.
Erin
Erin E. Templeton
Pennsylvania State University
Department of English
[log in to unmask]
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 10:13:55 -0800
Reply-To: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
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From: Harold Rhenisch <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: access to pound
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I'd just like to add that I like the idea of Pound on the web not because
of access, but because the notion of a vast hypertexuality in relationship
to Pound is very appealing and I'd like to see what could be made of it.
As far as access go, however, more access to the radio speaches would be
great. I have my copy, but I guess that it's not something you'd find down
at your corner newstand, if there is even a corner newstand in the
neighbourhood. In this neighbourhood there isn't.
regards,
Harold Rhenisch
[log in to unmask]
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 11:23:14 -0800
Reply-To: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "W. Freind" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: EP, Mullins, Webster
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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A few days ago, someone (sorry, forgot who) mentioned Michael Lind's book
_Up from Conservatism_, which suggests Pound financed some of Mullins'
work. I was surprised it wasn't mentioned *why* Lind talks about Mullins.
Briefly, Lind is showing the sources for televangelist and erstwhile
presidential candidate Pat Robertson's book _The New World Order_.
Robertson used *extremely* close paraphrases of both Mullins and Webster
to develop theory of a global conspiracy of Masons and bankers that goes
back to the 18th Century and financed the French and Russian Revolutions,
both world wars and the cold wars.
About the only substantial change Robertson makes to his sources is
switching "Jewish bankers" to "European bankers." It's an
interesting and devastating analysis which he first presented in the NY
Review of Books a few years back.
_New World Order_ was a bestseller, by the way. Some conspiracy theories
never go out of style.
Bill Freind
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 15:23:02 -0500
Reply-To: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
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From: laura and jeff <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Pound Guides
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> The Pound Era overwhelming.
actually: the pound era was the first book -on- pound i ever read. it
absolutely facinated me. (did kenner die? if so, when?)
i actually took the idea of the one two page section with the photo of pound
juxtaposed to the portrait by lewis. i made a large xeroxed copy of the
photo and a small xeroxed copy of the painting. i attached the painting to
the lower righthand corner of the photo. it hangs above my desk.
yup.
jeff.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There are no hierarchies, no infinite, no such many as mass,
there are only
eyes in all heads
to be looked out of
-charles olson, from "letter 6" (of the maximus poems)
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 18:07:34 -0500
Reply-To: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Leon Surette <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: on Surette to Miyake
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Thank you, Daniel Pearlman
Leon Surette Home: 519-681-7787
Dept. of English Fax: 519-661-3776
The University of Western Ontario Email: [log in to unmask]
London, Ontario
N6A 3K7
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 18:32:33 -0500
Reply-To: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Daniel Pearlman <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: EP, Mullins, Webster
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
When you say that Robertson's paraphrase of Mullins' and
Webster's rot is a "devastating analysis," I'm not sure
what you mean. Could you clarify? ==Dan P
At 11:23 AM 1/29/98 -0800, you wrote:
>A few days ago, someone (sorry, forgot who) mentioned Michael Lind's book
>_Up from Conservatism_, which suggests Pound financed some of Mullins'
>work. I was surprised it wasn't mentioned *why* Lind talks about Mullins.
>
>Briefly, Lind is showing the sources for televangelist and erstwhile
>presidential candidate Pat Robertson's book _The New World Order_.
>Robertson used *extremely* close paraphrases of both Mullins and Webster
>to develop theory of a global conspiracy of Masons and bankers that goes
>back to the 18th Century and financed the French and Russian Revolutions,
>both world wars and the cold wars.
>
>About the only substantial change Robertson makes to his sources is
>switching "Jewish bankers" to "European bankers." It's an
>interesting and devastating analysis which he first presented in the NY
>Review of Books a few years back.
>
>_New World Order_ was a bestseller, by the way. Some conspiracy theories
>never go out of style.
>
>Bill Freind
>
Dan Pearlman
Department of English
University of Rhode Island
Kingston, RI 02881
[Latest book: novel, BLACK FLAMES, White Pine Press, 1997]
Tel.: (home) 401 453-3027
(office) 401 874-4659
Fax: 401 874-2580
Internet: [log in to unmask]
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 00:38:07 +0100
Reply-To: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Piet Wesselman <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: availability of Pound
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
[I sent this 24 hours ago, but didn't see it appear on the list. My
apologies if it causes duplication]
At 19:40 28-1-98 -0500, you wrote:
>>my wife is a buyer for a
>>large independent that has stores in Ohio, Kentucky and Tenn.
>
>what store?? i'm currently stuck in wooster, ohio.
If you would not mind some commercial interlude on this: I am a bookseller
who happens also to be an avid reader of poetry, and Ezra Pound is one of my
favourites. As English is not my native tongue I am also very much
interested in commentaries that helped me in reading Pound. I am a very
interested lurker on this list and thank you all for your helpfull
commentaries and suggestions.
For those of you in the USA it may be helpful to have a look at
http://www.interloc.com, a search service for antiquarian and out of print
books by book dealers in the US.
I have some books on and by Pound for sale as well. These can be found at my
web page http://www.xs4all.nl/~pwessel/books/pound.html and in the
searchable database at http://www.antiqbook.nl/books/ These are at this time
different sets as I am in the process of entering more books; I intended to
inform you when I finished them all. Please ask for titles you do not see at
this moment. I do not have any separate early first editions :-(
My hopes are that you are not offended by this blatantly commercial message.
To appease you I offer a discount of 10 percent to any reader of EPOUND-L.
Just mention that you saw this message (Alas, this does not apply to the
huge Pound collection I have on offer for a customer...).
Kind regards,
Piet Wesselman
________________________________________________________________________
De Nederlandse Letteren: http://www.letteren.nl/
Book Lovers: http://www.xs4all.nl/~pwessel/
Antiqbook: NAN http://www.antiqbook.nl/
email: [log in to unmask]
________________________________________________________________________
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 19:51:48 -0500
Reply-To: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Jonathan Morse <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Mullins yet again
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]
ngton.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 11:23 AM 1/29/98 -0800, Bill Freind wrote:
>A few days ago, someone (sorry, forgot who) mentioned Michael Lind's book
>_Up from Conservatism_, which suggests Pound financed some of Mullins'
>work. I was surprised it wasn't mentioned *why* Lind talks about Mullins.
>
>Briefly, Lind is showing the sources for televangelist and erstwhile
>presidential candidate Pat Robertson's book _The New World Order_.
Right, and _Up from Conservatism_ is a good book. But my concern on this
list was with Pound.
However, as long as we're talking politics, here's a quote from Mullins,
pp. 320-21:
"During the 1956 elections, [Pound] called to my attention the commissar or
foetus type of public official that seems to have been produced by the
modern state. It is characterized by a round head, usually bald, a petulant
mouth, and the formless features of a new-born baby. In July, 1959, he
wrote to me,
"'Look up Lavater, 1745-1801, "inventor of physiognomic studies," esp.
criminal TYPES.
"'my impression that he set almost at lowest level the foetus type . . .'.
"I promptly did some research, and found, to my surprise, that a number of
great leaders in recent years could be classified as the foetus type, or
those who have not been fully formed in the womb. Such people seem capable,
indeed fated, to cause great harm to others. These atavistic types are
characterized by slight development of the pilar system, low cranial
capacity, great frequency of Wormian bones, early closing of the cranial
sutures, and a lemurine appendix. The type is round-faced, with slightly
protruding eyes and a vacant grin."
The pictures in _This Difficult Individual, Ezra Pound_ demonstrate that
Mullins' own pilar system was in fine shape; he was quite a hairy young
man. How he got clearance to dissect the bodies of great leaders he doesn't
say. But one does wonder whether Pound kept in touch with Dr. Mengele after
the war.
--
Jonathan Morse
Department of English
University of Hawaii at Manoa
[log in to unmask]
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Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 19:54:05 -0500
Reply-To: Robert E Kibler <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
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From: "Robert E. Kibler" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: availability of Pound
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On Fri, 30 Jan 1998 00:38:07 +0100 wrote...
>
I am interested in purchasing a copy of Pound's Radio Broadcasts. I attempted
to go to your Pound website, and no DNL. Is this a legitimate site? Some error
on my part or yourn? Please advise. A potential customer.
[I sent this 24 hours ago, but didn't see it appear on the list. My
>apologies if it causes duplication]
>
>At 19:40 28-1-98 -0500, you wrote:
>>>my wife is a buyer for a
>>>large independent that has stores in Ohio, Kentucky and Tenn.
>>
>>what store?? i'm currently stuck in wooster, ohio.
>
>If you would not mind some commercial interlude on this: I am a bookseller
>who happens also to be an avid reader of poetry, and Ezra Pound is one of my
>favourites. As English is not my native tongue I am also very much
>interested in commentaries that helped me in reading Pound. I am a very
>interested lurker on this list and thank you all for your helpfull
>commentaries and suggestions.
>
>For those of you in the USA it may be helpful to have a look at
>http://www.interloc.com, a search service for antiquarian and out of print
>books by book dealers in the US.
>
>I have some books on and by Pound for sale as well. These can be found at my
>web page http://www.xs4all.nl/~pwessel/books/pound.html and in the
>searchable database at http://www.antiqbook.nl/books/ These are at this time
>different sets as I am in the process of entering more books; I intended to
>inform you when I finished them all. Please ask for titles you do not see at
>this moment. I do not have any separate early first editions :-(
>
>My hopes are that you are not offended by this blatantly commercial message.
>To appease you I offer a discount of 10 percent to any reader of EPOUND-L.
>Just mention that you saw this message (Alas, this does not apply to the
>huge Pound collection I have on offer for a customer...).
>
>Kind regards,
>
>Piet Wesselman
>________________________________________________________________________
>De Nederlandse Letteren: http://www.letteren.nl/
>Book Lovers: http://www.xs4all.nl/~pwessel/
>Antiqbook: NAN http://www.antiqbook.nl/
>
>email: [log in to unmask]
>________________________________________________________________________
>
>
Robert E. Kibler
Department of English
University of Minnesota
[log in to unmask]
fortunatus et ille, deos qui novit agrestis,
Panaque Silvanumque senem Nymphasque sorores.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 21:37:18 -0500
Reply-To: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
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Sender: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
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From: Leon Surette <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: on Nesta Webster
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Your are quite welcome, Mr. Miyake.
Please give my regards to Akiko the next time you are in touch.
Leon Surette Home: 519-681-7787
Dept. of English Fax: 519-661-3776
The University of Western Ontario Email: [log in to unmask]
London, Ontario
N6A 3K7
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 21:37:19 -0500
Reply-To: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
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From: Leon Surette <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: on Nesta Webster
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Sorry Jeff,
I cannot give seminars on the net -- especially not on information I
am seeking to publish.
Leon Surette Home: 519-681-7787
Dept. of English Fax: 519-661-3776
The University of Western Ontario Email: [log in to unmask]
London, Ontario
N6A 3K7
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 20:52:24 -0600
Reply-To: [log in to unmask]
Sender: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
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From: "John K. Taber" <[log in to unmask]>
Organization: none
Subject: Re: Pound/Borah
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Sarah Catherine Holmes wrote:
> 2) Pound makes reference to a "Gamaliel." I think he's talking about the Bibl
> ical character, but I'm wondering ifthere was someone else with that name that
> he could have known/heard about.
Most likely Warren Gamaliel Harding, the much tarnished president of the
Teapot Dome scandal.
I am very curious about Pound's attitude towards "Gamaliel". Did he
echo the sentiments of the day concerning Harding? Or, was he
sympathetic to "Gamaliel"?
The "hard boiled" newspaper editor might have been Mencken.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 20:55:14 -0600
Reply-To: [log in to unmask]
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From: "John K. Taber" <[log in to unmask]>
Organization: none
Subject: Re: Sheri Martinelli
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Willard Goodwin wrote:
[snip]
> A much older Sheri (weirdly veiled and mysterious, as witnessed in Orono
> some years ago) is the model for a character in Larry McMurtry's _Dead
> Man's Walk_ (New York: Simon & Schuster, 1995). McMurtry's book is one of a
> quartet of novels about nineteenth century Texas, a Great Western, begun in
> 1985 with the Pulitzer Prize winning _Lonesome Dove_. I once had the very
> good fortune to ride with McMurtry over that Jornada del Muerta from Los
> Angeles to Austin. I recognized him in the airport; we sat together on the
> flight and talked about the novels, the subsequent TV mini-series, and
> about the antiquarian book trade (McMurtry has been an antiquarian book
> dealer for many years, proprietor of the Washington D.C. shop Booked-Up). I
> must have mentioned Pound, because McMurtry then described to me how Sheri
> arrived at his shop in Washington one day, in a Winnebago camper, wanting
> to sell Pound manuscripts, letters, etc. Apparently she was rather
> eccentric, covered in black veils and such; and that apparition stayed with
> McMurtry until he reconstructed her in the character of Lady Carey, and
> English noblewoman in _Dead Man's Walk_.
McMurtry supposedly has a *huge* bookstore in Archer City, TX (a little
SW of Wichita Falls). I hope to visit the store soon. I'll try to note
its Pound collection.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 21:18:54 -0600
Reply-To: [log in to unmask]
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From: "John K. Taber" <[log in to unmask]>
Organization: none
Subject: Re: just curious
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laura and jeff wrote:
>
> how did everyone become interested in pound?
> myself:
> my love of poetry eventually (and i'd think quite naturally) led me to him
> at a young age (as i have already refered to).
> just interested.
> jeff.
Josephine Miles at Berkeley introduced me to Pound in her Lyric
Poetry class about 1963. I was intrigued with _Homage to Sextus
Propertius_, especially the political element.
I found the _Cantos_ baffling, and put them off till my old age,
when I promised myself to undertake the _Cantos_, the Mahabharata,
and to try to solve the second Zodiac cipher. I'm an aging
computer programmer getting ready to retire.
The Companion is indispensable for me, and I can only marvel at
you guys who are at home with the Cantos without it.
I belong to a small group of poetry readers. We meet regularly
and practice reading the repertoire. Our own stuff is forbidden.
The idea is to learn how to read a poem, and how to perform it
out loud.
The group's reaction to Pound was interesting. I thought it best
to introduce the _Cantos_ with XLVI because it is a sort of
summing up. It sounded familiar because it sounded like our
fathers or uncles ranting about current events. That was the
group's assessment. The discussion was lively. I also provided
handouts on the money system, the Feds, and banking that I culled
from the saner posters to sci.econ.
This was not the case for Canto II which I tried next. The
allusions to Bacchus and Ovid were too much for the group's
immediate appreciation. I had read Ovid in Berkeley long ago
so the story was not so strange to me. There was no animated
discussion afterwards. And I had picked Canto II on purpose
for not being so difficult!
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 23:40:02 -0500
Reply-To: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
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Sender: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
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From: Tim Romano <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Mullins yet again
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The description of this baby-type politician seems to
draw upon ideas put forth by Wyndham Lewis in his
various essays on "youth culture": the elimination of
anything to do with adulthood and old age and the
promotion everywhere -- especially in advertising and
the media -- of childhood and youth, so that politician
and citizen become mirror images of the hyped type.
Compare, for example, this excerpt from the foreword of
THE DOOM OF YOUTH (1932) [where words are emphasized,
the emphasis is not mine but Lewis's]:
"But the method of government here, just as it is
elsewhere in openly socialized states, is
pedagogic--the politics are intensively
'Youth-politics'. Mr. and Mrs. Everyman live in a
_nursery_... It is, in fact, a sort of
_male-matriarchy_ -- if one can describe a thing in
that unnatural way.
...
The term 'Youth-politics' signifies the management of
this system of education and propaganda-politics, in
which Ma and Pa Everyman are two childlike persons, of
course. But the _Everymans_, as a family, are very
decadent--they in fact do become more infantile every
day...
... the Everymans, in their present condition (they
have reached the stage of dribbling and babbling, and
scarcely are to be trusted any more to attend to their
domestic slops and flush the drains of their natural
offices)..."
Tim Romano
Jonathan Morse wrote:
>
> At 11:23 AM 1/29/98 -0800, Bill Freind wrote:
> >A few days ago, someone (sorry, forgot who) mentioned Michael Lind's book
> >_Up from Conservatism_, which suggests Pound financed some of Mullins'
> >work. I was surprised it wasn't mentioned *why* Lind talks about Mullins.
> >
> >Briefly, Lind is showing the sources for televangelist and erstwhile
> >presidential candidate Pat Robertson's book _The New World Order_.
>
> Right, and _Up from Conservatism_ is a good book. But my concern on this
> list was with Pound.
> However, as long as we're talking politics, here's a quote from Mullins,
> pp. 320-21:
>
> "During the 1956 elections, [Pound] called to my attention the commissar or
> foetus type of public official that seems to have been produced by the
> modern state. It is characterized by a round head, usually bald, a petulant
> mouth, and the formless features of a new-born baby. In July, 1959, he
> wrote to me,
>
> "'Look up Lavater, 1745-1801, "inventor of physiognomic studies," esp.
> criminal TYPES.
>
> "'my impression that he set almost at lowest level the foetus type . . .'.
>
> "I promptly did some research, and found, to my surprise, that a number of
> great leaders in recent years could be classified as the foetus type, or
> those who have not been fully formed in the womb. Such people seem capable,
> indeed fated, to cause great harm to others. These atavistic types are
> characterized by slight development of the pilar system, low cranial
> capacity, great frequency of Wormian bones, early closing of the cranial
> sutures, and a lemurine appendix. The type is round-faced, with slightly
> protruding eyes and a vacant grin."
>
> The pictures in _This Difficult Individual, Ezra Pound_ demonstrate that
> Mullins' own pilar system was in fine shape; he was quite a hairy young
> man. How he got clearance to dissect the bodies of great leaders he doesn't
> say. But one does wonder whether Pound kept in touch with Dr. Mengele after
> the war.
>
> --
> Jonathan Morse
> Department of English
> University of Hawaii at Manoa
> [log in to unmask]
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 02:11:30 -0500
Reply-To: [log in to unmask]
Sender: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
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From: Lucas Klein <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: just curious
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I hope this gets through.
I describe Pound as my favorite and least favortie poet.
Nonetheless, I am a Poundian, both intellectually and emotionally and
poetically, for all our disagreements and agreements.
Sorry about all the contradictions (do I dontradict myself? Very well,
I contradict myself. I am large. I contain multitudes. Hey, come one,
everyone likes at least one Whitman line. . .)
I first got into Pound while taking a Yeats and Eliot class my junior
year of high school. I was also, as I am now, listening to a lot of Bob
Dylan music (and had gone through never to return the Beatnik Ginsberg
phase), and the line in Desolation Row "Ezra Pound and T. S. Eliot
fighting in the captain's tower" really intrigued me.
No, I don't look up all the references in Dylan songs, just as I don't
look up all the references in Pound's songs.
I was also just beginning to study Chinese, with Daoism as my great
inspiration there. And the first thing I read of his was the Kung
Canto, XIII.
The common interest with disagreements drew me to his poetry, and when I
read Hugh Selwyn Mauberley I was in love. It took me a long time to
recognize the emotion in Pound in addition to the intellect, but when I
did I realized even more why I read and re-read his poems.
No, I still haven't read the Cantos fully, I must admit, but I love most
of what I've read. I also love his poetic theories--ABC of Reading is
one of my bibles.
I also hate a lot of the Cantos. Being a Daoist of Jewish descent, how
could I really love his hatred of Taozers and his rails against the
Protocols?
But you love in spite of, not because of.
And we all know that if it weren't for EP, there would be no 20th
century poetry in any form we know it.
Also, as for this whole Ezra in the classroom thing, I know I'm not
smart enough to teach Pound and I'm not dumb enough to try. I think a
lot of professors feel this way (no, I'm not a professor, just an
undergraduate, but I can't forsee ever teaching a class on Pound as
Pound). Just like for all the wonderful things I've heard of Finnegans
Wake, I know nowhere where it's introduced to the general student. the
emotions may be the most important and enduring of any great literary
work, but the intellect involved opens only a narrow mail-slot that most
packages can't fit through, either not intellectual enough to be taught
or too much for the professors to teach. Neither pound nor ferlinghetti
are taught, notice.
politics notwithstanding.
Lucas
_________________________
Lucas Klein
[log in to unmask]
Say it! No ideas but in things. Mr.
Paterson has gone away
to rest and write. Inside the bus one sees
his thoughts sitting and standing. His
thoughts alight and scatter
William Carlos Williams
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 12:16:00 +0100
Reply-To: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
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Sender: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
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From: Alexander Schmitz <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: How We Began
Jeff -
the EP "lightning" struck me in 1965; I was in Hi School back then in what we in Germany call
the 12th form [in West Berlin it's 6 yrs elementary school - instead of 4 as in the rest of Germany -
and then either this or that school. If you have13 yrs all in all you're graduated from Hi & can go to
the university...] Well, and back then I must have been in a sort of poetry reading frency
spending ALL the money I got [pocket-money, as we say] in paper editions of about ANY poet I
cd get hold of. It ranged from Senghor/Africa to Rozewicz/Poland; but as early as then it was the
Americans in the 1st place - at that time the Black Mtn Coll. greats Creeley, Olson &c.
We had to write a so-called "Jahresarbeit" which meant you've got about 10 months time to
choose a topic and write about it; it cd be ANYthing, aviation, how to build a house, Brecht,
Vietnam, sports, Goethe, Peano axioms; well and I went to our Engl. teacher & sd:
>Mrs Kern, I'd 4very much like to write about OLSON.<
There was a small selection of Olson's things out in a beautiful and unexpensive German paper
ed. selected/transl. by Klaus Reichert (a Black Mtn specialist). And Mrs Kern sd: "But Alex,
nobody KNOWS this - what's his name?" She meaning, of course, SHE didn't know...
And exactly at that time my late mum (med. doctor used to reading 350 page novels during ONE
nite) had a black book lying on her otherwise chronically chaotic bedside-table: "EZRA POUND -
ABC DES LESENS" [EP/ABC of Rdg.]. Well, and THAT started it all. I never ever again in my life
heard such a fasciating NAME [something like this "Dorothy effect"? ] & such a FUNNY title for a
book. And at that time all you cd afford to get in book form (with about 30 Marks per month) by EP
was an excellent and now (alas!) out-of-print selection of EP's Cantos. Well.
I went to Mrs Kern again:
- "OK then, Mrs Kern - what about Ezra Pound?"
- "?"
- "The CANTOS of Ezra Pound !!"
- "?????????????????????????????????????"
But I got her! After a short while of asking this & that it was ok with her that I wd write an
"analysis"/ comparison of Canto LXXIX, i.e. original text & translation. And you wdn't believe it: it
became an A [i. e. "1" here in Germany]. My mother sd: >Mh, well, yeaah, quite nice... BUT it cd
have been MUCH better!" [This strange method of not encouraging you but always saying: This
or that shd be BETTER!]. And that started it all. Plus the ENORMOUS fascination of
definitely understanding NOTHING - Greek, too much Latin, Italian, Spanish - simply too much for
a 19 year old Berliner's brain.
But actually it was the beauty of those chinese characters, the "ming", the "hsien", the "t'an" -
which pushed me into the university to become a sinologue. And sort of a specialist in modern
poetry & esp. US poetry (EVERYTHING, but esp. our century).
Still in 1966, right after graduation from hi I made my pilgrimage to Eva Hesse (German translator
of EP & tireless constructor of bridges between US poetry & German ignorance...) and that 1st
visit - and MANY more visits resulting in a close friendship with her & her Irish wonderful hubby
Mike) including numerous visits at Brunnenburg and even - yes - a day with EP & Olga in Venice
(me with guitar in hand standing at the info center in stazione termini asking this guy: >Scusi, cd
you tell me where I cd get a TAXI?< - in V E N I C E !!!), meeting Hugh Kenner in Munich, Michael
Reck at the Starnberger See, Will. Cookson/Agenda in London etc etc, years of correspondence
with Guy Davenport in Lexington, KY... It was a chain-reaction. It became a PASSION which wd
last a WHOLE life...
Well, Jeff, so that's one of those stories about a guy by now 52 yrs of age & not able to imagine
his life - or only a single day - WITHOUT EP. It's an addiction, it's a dangerous addiction; and on
the other hand it's the healthiest, the most wonderful addiction you cd think of: EP means reading
LOADS of other things; EP means a very special brand of KULCHUR. It is EP who opened my
mind/senses for America & the Americans (plus imagine that a West Berliner always had string
ties to Americans. It was they who kept us alive in 48/49 and 1957 ff) but NOT ONLY for America:
Isn't it funny that you helplessly fall in love with an AMERICAN to show you all the beauties &
treasures of the OLD WORLD - the very place YOU happen to live...?
OK. Excuse my eloquence, Jeff. I just thought I shd tell MY story. It's LXXXI - what thou lovest
well...
Cheers!
alex
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 08:04:21 EST
Reply-To: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
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From: Jay Anania <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: on Nesta Webster
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In a message dated 1/28/98 10:14:14 PM, you wrote:
<<I might add that I am more than a little distressed at some of the
responses to Miyake's query. Questions about Pound's attitude toward Jews
are both legitimate and in principle answerable on the basis of evidence. It
is absurd to assert that no evidence is needed since we know in our hearts
that Pound was innocent (or guilty). Nor is it helpful to take a page from
Hilary Clinton's book and attack anyone who is interested in ascetaining as
near as may be the truth of the matter. >>
I agree that the responses to Miyake's query seemed a little aggressive.
Akiyoshi Miyake's seems genuinely interested in finding out some chronology in
Pound's ideas on Jews. But I would have had more sympathy with the self-
righteous responses had I noticed that for the last several years Miyake had
been fishing around for something, anything, anywhere, to discredit Pound,
with a view, for instance, of having him removed from all university
libraries. This is, to my view, what Ken Starr has been doing, not simply
trying to ascertain the truth of anything. (I assume Ken Starr is the point
of the Hilary reference. If not, ignore this two-cent comment.)
Jay Anania
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 07:03:26 -0800
Reply-To: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
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From: "W. Freind" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: EP, Mullins, Webster
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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On Thu, 29 Jan 1998, Daniel Pearlman wrote:
> When you say that Robertson's paraphrase of Mullins' and
> Webster's rot is a "devastating analysis," I'm not sure
> what you mean. Could you clarify? ==Dan P
Oops -- pronoun slippage. "It" was supposed to refer to Lind, not
Robertson. My point was that Lind clearly demonstrates that Robertson was
simply tarting up the same old anti-Semitic conspiracy theories.
Bill Freind
>
> At 11:23 AM 1/29/98 -0800, you wrote:
> >A few days ago, someone (sorry, forgot who) mentioned Michael Lind's book
> >_Up from Conservatism_, which suggests Pound financed some of Mullins'
> >work. I was surprised it wasn't mentioned *why* Lind talks about Mullins.
> >
> >Briefly, Lind is showing the sources for televangelist and erstwhile
> >presidential candidate Pat Robertson's book _The New World Order_.
> >Robertson used *extremely* close paraphrases of both Mullins and Webster
> >to develop theory of a global conspiracy of Masons and bankers that goes
> >back to the 18th Century and financed the French and Russian Revolutions,
> >both world wars and the cold wars.
> >
> >About the only substantial change Robertson makes to his sources is
> >switching "Jewish bankers" to "European bankers." It's an
> >interesting and devastating analysis which he first presented in the NY
> >Review of Books a few years back.
> >
> >_New World Order_ was a bestseller, by the way. Some conspiracy theories
> >never go out of style.
> >
> >Bill Freind
> >
> Dan Pearlman
> Department of English
> University of Rhode Island
> Kingston, RI 02881
>
> [Latest book: novel, BLACK FLAMES, White Pine Press, 1997]
>
> Tel.: (home) 401 453-3027
> (office) 401 874-4659
> Fax: 401 874-2580
> Internet: [log in to unmask]
>
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 08:50:46 -0500
Reply-To: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
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From: Timothy P Redman <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Hugh Kenner
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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Hugh Kenner is very much alive and well in Athens, Georgia, working
on another book. He and Mary Ann live on Plum Nelly Road (plumb out
of Georgia and nelly into Tennessee, they told me).
On Thu, 29 Jan 1998 15:23:02 -0500 laura and jeff
<[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > The Pound Era overwhelming.
>
> actually: the pound era was the first book -on- pound i ever read. it
> absolutely facinated me. (did kenner die? if so, when?)
> i actually took the idea of the one two page section with the photo of pound
> juxtaposed to the portrait by lewis. i made a large xeroxed copy of the
> photo and a small xeroxed copy of the painting. i attached the painting to
> the lower righthand corner of the photo. it hangs above my desk.
> yup.
> jeff.
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> There are no hierarchies, no infinite, no such many as mass,
> there are only
> eyes in all heads
> to be looked out of
>
> -charles olson, from "letter 6" (of the maximus poems)
Tim Redman
School of Arts and Humanities, JO 31
University of Texas at Dallas
P.O. Box 830688
Richardson, TX 75083-0688
(972) 883-2775 (o)
(972) 883-2989 (fax)
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 12:18:50 -0500
Reply-To: Robert E Kibler <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "Robert E. Kibler" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Hugh Kenner
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On Fri, 30 Jan 1998 08:50:46 -0500 wrote...
>
I really think the first book of Kenner's, "The Poetry of Ezra Pound," does
a better introductory job of bringing initiates closer to Pound's work. Pound
Era is a great book, but it is Kenner's book. It illustrates Kenner's
brilliance, refracted through Pound, by way of Buckminster Fuller, for an
audience of folk who already admire Pound's work. And if I had to make a list
of the five most important first books for understanding Pound (Companion
aside), read in this sequence, here is what that very limited but manageable
list would look like:
Carol Christ, Victorian and Modernist Poetics (paperback, available)
Kenner I: Poetry of Ezra Pound (paperback, available)
Paul Nassar, Cantos of Ezra Pound: The Lyric Mode
Daniel Pearlman, Barb of Time: Unity of Pound's Cantos
Leon Surrette, A Light from Eleusis, A Study of Cantos
you know, this was a very difficult list to assemble, given all of
the great Pound criticism out there. But here it is. $100 worth of
books, my guess, though Nassar, Pearlman, Surrette probably out of
print. After this, you could move to books that look at sections of
the Cantos--Nolde, Bacigalupo, Furia, or which situate Pound in broad
philosophical traditions, Gefin, Scwhartz, Sherry, Zhaomin--but here
I go, thwarting the cleanness of a five book list...
> The Pound Era overwhelming.
>>
>> actually: the pound era was the first book -on- pound i ever read. it
>> absolutely facinated me. (did kenner die? if so, when?)
>> i actually took the idea of the one two page section with the photo of pound
>> juxtaposed to the portrait by lewis. i made a large xeroxed copy of the
>> photo and a small xeroxed copy of the painting. i attached the painting to
>> the lower righthand corner of the photo. it hangs above my desk.
>> yup.
>> jeff.
>>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
>>
>> There are no hierarchies, no infinite, no such many as mass,
>> there are only
>> eyes in all heads
>> to be looked out of
>>
>> -charles olson, from "letter 6" (of the maximus
> poems)
>
>Tim Redman
>School of Arts and Humanities, JO 31
>University of Texas at Dallas
>P.O. Box 830688
>Richardson, TX 75083-0688
>
>(972) 883-2775 (o)
>(972) 883-2989 (fax)
>
>
Robert E. Kibler
Department of English
University of Minnesota
[log in to unmask]
fortunatus et ille, deos qui novit agrestis,
Panaque Silvanumque senem Nymphasque sorores.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 09:55:04 -0800
Reply-To: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
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From: Jacob Korg <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Pound Guides
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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Dear Erin Templeton:
Since you are facing the task of presenting Pound to
undergraduates, you might try a theme that may work him back into the
attention, if not the affection, of the current generation; note that EP
represents REAL DIVERSITY, that favorite mantra of the moment. He slides
from Renaissance Italy to Confucian China and back again, without missing
much in between. Of course, this is not what the diversity-merchants mean
at all, but it is what they ought to mean. Best wishes with your course.
On Wed, 28 Jan 1998, Erin Templeton wrote:
> I'd add that the Froula gulde to ND's _Selected Poems_ is also helpful; I
> just wish she'd done more! While I'm here, anyone know of an article or
> book that provides an overview of the Cantos--something that gives the "lay
> of the land"? I am trying to put together a Pound overview presentation
> for non-modernist grad students, and I am looking for something between a
> Norton introduction and the highly specialized sources that would be a bit
> overwhelming. Any suggestions would be appreciated.
> Thanks,
> Erin
>
>
> Erin E. Templeton
> Pennsylvania State University
> Department of English
> [log in to unmask]
>
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 15:36:10 -0500
Reply-To: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
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From: laura and jeff <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: just curious
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>Sorry about all the contradictions (do I dontradict myself? Very well,
>I contradict myself. I am large. I contain multitudes. Hey, come one,
>everyone likes at least one Whitman line. . .)
i love whitman... and contradictions are an important part of life, thuis
their importance in my theories on poetry... contradiction : irony : (in
science) complexity. i'll stop before this turns into a polemic.
>(and had gone through never to return the Beatnik Ginsberg
>phase),
huh?
the beats are important-- as are (esp.) the black mountain poets.
>But you love in spite of, not because of.
amen.
>And we all know that if it weren't for EP, there would be no 20th
>century poetry in any form we know it.
(another, louder): amen.
>Neither pound nor ferlinghetti
>are taught, notice.
good point...
>Say it! No ideas but in things. Mr.
>Paterson has gone away
>to rest and write. Inside the bus one sees
>his thoughts sitting and standing. His
>thoughts alight and scatter
>
> William Carlos Williams
good. i wonder why there is not a williams discussion list???
jeff.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There are no hierarchies, no infinite, no such many as mass,
there are only
eyes in all heads
to be looked out of
-charles olson, from "letter 6" (of the maximus poems)
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 15:44:06 -0500
Reply-To: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
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From: laura and jeff <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Hugh Kenner
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>Hugh Kenner is very much alive and well in Athens, Georgia, working
>on another book. He and Mary Ann live on Plum Nelly Road (plumb out
>of Georgia and nelly into Tennessee, they told me).
cool. if you know how i may be able to get in touch with him (email, snail
addy, etc.), i'd appreciate it. i've some questions.
thanks.
jeff.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There are no hierarchies, no infinite, no such many as mass,
there are only
eyes in all heads
to be looked out of
-charles olson, from "letter 6" (of the maximus poems)
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 13:46:09 -0800
Reply-To: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
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Sender: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
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From: Steve Conger <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Pope in 1808, Pound in 2008
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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I've been following the recent discussions with some interest. I too came
across Pound in High School and became an instant fanatic. I don't
remember him being in any school curriculum. I was a big fan of Yeat's and
Eliot. It was their references to him that led me to special order a copy
of the Cantos. (Just as later it was Pound's dedications that led me to
Zukofsky and Bunting and for that matter WCW and HD). At Gonzaga, my
professors indulged, even if they didn't quite understand, my interest in
Pound. In Graduate school at the University of Idaho I had the good
fortune of attending a semester long course on Pound led by Daniel
Pearlman. I am no longer 20 or 30 something, but that is when I was most
involved. I must also admit I almost never encounter anyone anymore who
even knows who Pound is. That may reflect more the circles I travel in
than the state of Pound studies.
I recently reread the Cantos. It was about my eight time completely
through, but the first time in several years. As I did, I tried to access
what about Pound had (and to some extent still does) fascinate me so. For
one thing the Poetic craft. I am a poet and Pound has always served as an
education on the possibilities of poetic line and form. For another, it is
his pagan, elusinian sense of the sacred. His reverence for the earth,
particularly in the late Cantos, strikes me as modern equivalents of the
homeric hymns. Third, is the scorn with which he observes the rise of
modern consumer economies.
But, another source of the fascination is how someone with such poetic
Intellegence can be so dull on some levels; how someone of such delicate
sensibilites can be so insensitive; how someone who sees the smallest
natural details--the waterbug's mittons--can be so blind.
I have to confess as I get older, his prejudices and bombasts bother me
more. Enough for this post.
=====================================
= Steve Conger =
= [log in to unmask] =
= Seattle Central Community College =
= Seattle WA =
= Phusis kruptesthai philei =
=====================================
On Wed, 28 Jan 1998, William Cole wrote:
> On Tue, 27 Jan 1998, Erin Templeton wrote:
>
> > I hardly think that the reason younger scholars and stdents of
> > literature have "hardly even heard of [Pound]" is because the Cantos aren't
> > available on the Web. While electronic access might be convenient, it isn't
> > preventing students and aspiring scholars from reading EP. Perhaps a more
> > likely reason is his conspicuous absence from the classroom--whether because
> > his poetry is "too difficult" or because many instructors find his politics
> > distasteful or inappropriate for the classroom. As an undergraduate, I was
> > always curious about Pound, but never got the chance to read him. It wasn't
> > until my second semester of graduate school that I found his work on a
> > syllabus, and even still, I find that the pre-dominant attitude among
> > professors and students is one of grudging appreciation--yes, he was an
> > important figure, but his poetry is difficult to understand and often best
> > left to interested individuals with lots of free time and additional
> > references. Availability of texts, in my opinion, isn't the problem--it's
> > Pound's troubled position within the institution.
>
> As another 20-almost-30-nothinger, I'll second Erin's observations. A lot
> of academics just don't want to deal with Pound, especially when it comes
> to the politics. Comments I've heard in my academic career (quotations
> somewhat approximate):
>
> "Social credit was an idea Pound got from Wyndham Lewis, who was a
> fascist." (End of that topic)
>
> "Who was that mentor of Eliot's who loved Mussolini?" (meaning Pound).
>
> I think Pound, despite his difficulty, can be friendlier to non-academics,
> especially by way of his often delightfully irreverent prose (I found
> solace in the ABC of Economics during a bad unemployed period between grad
> programs).
>
> Back to lurk mode.
>
> --WC
>
> __________________________________________________________________
> William Cole <[log in to unmask]>
> Dept. of English
> University of Georgia
>
> "A sound poetic training is nothing more that the science of being
> discontented." --Ezra Pound
>
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 16:58:08 -0500
Reply-To: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
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From: laura and jeff <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: hey...
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thanks to everyone who answered my question about interest in pound.
it is really facinating to me to see how everyone became involved .
yadda yadda.
yup.
thanks.
jeff.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There are no hierarchies, no infinite, no such many as mass,
there are only
eyes in all heads
to be looked out of
-charles olson, from "letter 6" (of the maximus poems)
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 09:34:18 +0900
Reply-To: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
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From: akiyoshi miyake <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re[2]: on Nesta Webster
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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JJTLSA> had I noticed that for the last several years Miyake had
JJTLSA>been fishing around for something, anything, anywhere, to discredit Pound,
JJTLSA>with a view, for instance, of having him removed from all university
JJTLSA>libraries.
Little do I imagine that there is anyone in this list who is reading
Pound with such a wicked intention. I believe it is needless to say, but
let me dare say this:it is erroneous to bury oneself in Pound's
politico-economic aspect while ignoring his beautiful poems; it is as
much erroneous to read only his beatific visionary passages and turn
one's eyes from his fascist side or antisemitic one. I believe it is most
faithful to Pound's teaching to try to grasp his total intellectual structure,
including his dark sides, since he always emphasized the importance of
paideuma, totality in the culture,...That's all.
Thank you.
Aki
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
akiyoshi miyake
[log in to unmask]
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 19:33:42 EST
Reply-To: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
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From: Jay Anania <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Pope in 1808, Pound in 2008
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In a message dated 1/30/98 5:41:17 PM, you wrote:
<<I have to confess as I get older, his prejudices and bombasts bother me
more.>>
For me, also, the tones in some of his voices that I didn't like at first
glance are even less appealing as time goes on...on the other hand the
astonishing beauty of his lyric style, the sincerity and mastery of his craft,
and what you call his "pagan sense of the sacred" seem more moving, more rare,
and more important as I get older. Jay Anania
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 20:12:02 -0800
Reply-To: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
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From: Jim Strachan <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: hey...
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At 04:58 PM 1/30/98 -0500, jeff wrote:
>thanks to everyone who answered my question about interest in pound.
>it is really facinating to me to see how everyone became involved .
>yadda yadda.
>yup.
>thanks.
>jeff.
I think, if the list is still as large as it was a few months back, there's
a couple hundred more replies to go!
jim
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 23:09:06 EST
Reply-To: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
<[log in to unmask]>
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From: Jay Anania <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: on Nesta Webster
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Mr. Miyake,
I am sorry if you misunderstood... I think I was unclear...I was saying that
of course you intended nothing but the most serious, conscientious
scholarship....and that I agreed with Surrette that the REACTIONS to your
query were oddly aggressive...My disagreement was with what seemed to be
Surrette's comparison of what I take to be Independent Prosecutor Ken Starr's
politically motivated hounding of many public officials with your honest
pursuit of a subject that is, and should be, of interest. I apologize that my
clumsy note was not any clearer. For that matter, perhaps I misunderstood
Surrette. Thank you, and, again, I'm sorry. Jay Anania
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 13:31:40 -0600
Reply-To: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
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Sender: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
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From: Nikki M Pill <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: just curious
hi,
>how did everyone become interested in pound?
when in high school, i always spent my lunch hour in the "silent" room of
the library, which was where they kept the poetry. (i was the token
solitary black-clad angst-girl at my hs, she says wryly). when i started
reading sylvia plath, i noticed that there were several books by ezra
pound next to hers. i just picked one up because his name looked
interesting. i started reading it -- it was the collection of his early
works -- and i was fascinated. bought the book and kept going back to
re-read it, especially "francesca" and "praise of ysolt."
a year ago, i started reading a biography... got distracted in the middle
and stopped. ever since then i've been kicking myself -- "blasphemer, how
could you not want to pick up pound again?!" -- until i signed on this
list and saw the reactions to that particular one. (red-faced, i admit)
the tytell one... i shall hasten to the bookstore and buy carpenter's...
finally, i got to spend a whole 4 hours studying pound in my modern
poetry class this past term (with an excellent teacher), and learned
about his far-reaching influence when we studied other poets. i have a
funny feeling i'll be getting lots & lots of books i've heard about on
this list to continue my studies... i'm intimidated by the *cantos,* but
drawn to pound like the proverbial moth to a candle.
incidentally, i love you all for cramming my mailbox full of such
fascinating things. i'm not as learned as all y'all seem to be, but i've
got a voracious appetite for literature and learning.
nikki
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Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 15:09:06 -0500
Reply-To: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine
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From: james loucks <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Hugh Kenner
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Don't expect a reply. I wrote him about a year ago and got no answer.
Jim
At 03:44 PM 1/30/98 -0500, you wrote:
>>Hugh Kenner is very much alive and well in Athens, Georgia, working
>>on another book. He and Mary Ann live on Plum Nelly Road (plumb out
>>of Georgia and nelly into Tennessee, they told me).
>
>cool. if you know how i may be able to get in touch with him (email, snail
>addy, etc.), i'd appreciate it. i've some questions.
>thanks.
>jeff.
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> There are no hierarchies, no infinite, no such many as mass,
> there are only
> eyes in all heads
> to be looked out of
>
> -charles olson, from "letter 6" (of the
maximus poems)
>
>
James F. Loucks
The Ohio State University at Newark
1179 University Drive
Newark, OH 43055-1797
FAX 614 366-5047