Well, I can't resist putting in my 2 on this Ivy league thing. First off, Harvard most definitely does have different admission standards for athletes (the so called "athletic tip"). The stated policy is that this is only a deciding factor when all other things are equal, but I don't think any one honestly believes it works that way. I don't have any statistics, but it wouldn't surprise me if the gap between the academic qualifications of athletes and non-athletes at Harvard approaches that at other schools. What Harvard can say, is that there is no "gut" academic track for athletes to take once they get here. I doubt anyone comes to Harvard without intending to get an education. In fact I don't really object to the athletic tip. I think the dedication it takes to be a successful athlete is likely to be as good an indicator of future success beyond college as are grades or SAT scores. Plus it's much more racially blind than either. I think the admissions tip Harvard gives to the offspring of alumni/ae is more troubling (presumably both have the practical benefit of helping fund raising, which sometimes seems like Harvard's real purpose). As far as academic reputations, people may feel that they're phantom, but reputations are what attract good students and grant money, and at the graduate level that's what matters. Thus I think being perceived as an "elite tier research university" (to my mind, the Ivies, MIT, Chicago, Berkeley, Stanford, and Michigan) is self perpetuating even if in individual departments your milage may vary. It is of course unfair that in the popular conception research reputations get confused with quality of undergraduate education. I think there is some correlation, stemming from the increased money and decreased teaching loads at the research universities, but for my money you get better value at your state's public university. (There may be some truth to the cliche about researchers not caring about teaching, but in my experience this hasn't stopped them from doing a good job). Tom Hancock [log in to unmask]