Dear Dan, When he translated the poem, he was not in Italy, but in London. Of course he might have seen Italian blue plums before, but I do not think he had the plums in Italy in his mind when translating the poem. Hiroko ----- Original Message ----- From: "Back door" <[log in to unmask]> To: <[log in to unmask]> Sent: Sunday, December 05, 2004 7:36 AM Subject: Re: more on 'qing' > Incredible. Those posts are a bit overwhelming. > The case for one color would seem to be as strong as another, > not considering Pound's own intentions. "Without dislike or suspicion" > would suggeest innocence. Blue could also suggest the sadness of the > wife's > mood, I > suppose, but that's a bit clich $B!& (B Was Pound living in Italy at that time? > There are some gorgeous Italian blue plums. They may have suggested > something to him. > > I have a Chinese friend. He may be able to help with the original. > Great thanks to all. > > http://users.pullman.com/pace/BluePlums.htm > > Dan P. > >>From: "J. Mark Smith" <[log in to unmask]> >>Reply-To: - Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine >> <[log in to unmask]> >>To: [log in to unmask] >>Subject: more on 'qing' >>Date: Sat, 4 Dec 2004 16:15:31 -0500 >> >> here's an interesting comment on that same word 'qing': >> >>"In what in English we still call Mandarin, but which since 1949, in >>China, >>has been called 'putonghua' ('the common language,' though in fact it is a >>dialect of the north), the color turquoise is known as qing lu, or >>'natural- >>color green," qing meaning 'natural (color)'; lu, green. Qing hai: the >>blue >>sea; qing shan: the green mountains; qing ye: the black night. It is as if >>all >>things have their own 'natural' color: the green of the mountains (that >>might, >>to us, be grey, or blue), the blue of the sea (that might, also, be >>green), >>the gloom of a car accident that is black (but might instead be that deep >>almost sweet blue of certain paintings) when one is lying in the hospital, >>having just come close to death. So natural green would be as good a color >>as >>any to describe those poems [of the Tang Dynasty], most them now more than >>1200 years old, but still strangely fresh, as if waiting for us to come >>upon >>them again." >> >>(from <Introduction to the Introduction to Wang Wei>, a book of verse >>homages >>and imitations by Canadian poets Roo Borson, Kim Maltman, Andy Patton >>(Pain >>Not Bread), 2000.) >> >> But is the word 'qing' in the original Li Po poem? >> >> J. Mark Smith >> >> >>Quoting James McDougall <[log in to unmask]>: >> >> > >The confusion arises because the character qing [or >> > >ch'ing according to the Wade Giles phonetic system], >> > >(?) especially as it is used in classical >> > >Chinese does not have a ready equivalent in English. A >> > >direct translations of blue into Chinese would be lan >> > >? , a direct translation of green would be lu >> > >? , and a direct translation of black would be >> > >hei ?. Qing can be any of these colors, so all >> > >the translations are correct. >> > > >> > >For example qingtian ?? means blue sky, >> > >but qingcai ?? means green vegetables, >> > >and qingwa ?? means frog (all the same >> > >qing). A cliche in the language of landscapes, >> > >qingshan lushui ????, >> > >means "blue mountains green water," but the qing here >> > >suggests instead of a topaz blue that >> > >blackish-verdant color of rocks and trees. Qingnian >> > >??(green years) means youth, and >> > >qingchun ??(green spring) means >> > >puberty/"youthful vigour,"--in Li Bo's version the >> > >overtone of youthful vigor is probably implied, >> > >especially because plum blossoms flower in the >> > >winter/early spring, and are symbolic of beauty that >> > >blossoms out of difficult conditions, likewise, alas, >> > >the beauty of the Merchant wife's address. >> > > >> > >I'm not sure whether Pound knew all this or not, but I >> > >think there is an intentionality to the "blue" which >> > >is disjuntive of his audience's expectations. More >> > >importantly, the connotation of qing to youth in >> > >Chinese is used optimistically as a potentiality >> > >through which the more mundane seasons of life can be >> > >realized. In English "green" in the same context >> > >negatively suggests an inexperienced hack; and I think >> > >the "blue plums" are emblematic of the way that Pound >> > >tightly reins in connotation to control tone and >> > >subjectivity. >> > > >> > >JMcD >> > >Graduate Assistant >> > >University of Florida >> > >Department of English >> > >[log in to unmask] >> > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Scan and help eliminate destructive viruses from your inbound and outbound > e-mail and attachments. > http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-ca&page=byoa/prem&xAPID=1994&DI=1034&SU=http://hotmail.com/enca&HL=Market_MSNIS_Taglines > Start enjoying all the benefits of MSN $B%g (B Premium right now and get the > first two months FREE*. > >