Thank you Peter, I do hope the kind of silliness you describe doesn't spill over. I am curious about your interest in Pound's dramatic sensibility. I have been thinking about his relationship to Browning, the Ur- cantos and the various stories of influence. Ronald Bush describes a delicate moment in the advent of the Ur-Cantos where Pound is thought to hear Eliot's advice concerning the presence of Pound's personality in that poem. Eliot is thought, in abt. 1919, just prior to the Ur-Cantos revision from their 1915 'Poetry' incarnation into that year's 'Quia Pauper Amavi' state, to counsel Pound to excise a 'redundant' passage of quibbling with Browning in their private, Sordell-ian 'brother's speech.' Bush guesses that Eliot found the section in Ur- Canto1, beginning with the lines What a hodge-podge you have made there! — Zanze and swanzig, of all opprobrious rhymes! And you turn off whenever it suits your fancy, Now at Verona, now with the early Christians, to be an intrusive statement of Pound's own personality and redundant to the poem's better thematic traffic with Browning over the status of poetic and historic facts. Bush reminds me that 1919 is the year Eliot wrote 'Tradition and the Individual Talent,' and the wonderful prayer-lines regarding freedom and personality. (It is Sunday morning.) I am interested in your sense of Pound's dramatic sensibility for what it might tell us about the way he modulated his voice within a theme, working between objective and subjective registers, 'live' and represented speech. Does Pound's understanding, that is, not his 'howl-ing' 'errors', of the Noh tradition shed any light here? 'Kamasuka' threads itself into these early Cantos as well and is an aspect I have yet to consider. The advice and references offered by Dirk Johnson is obviously a great place to start. yours, Chris. -----Original Message----- From: - Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Peter Montgomery Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2004 9:16 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: trolling Trolling has to do with weird creatures who deliberately try to destroy lists by creating destructive arguments which alienate the participants so they won't participate or so that they leave the list. The Mcluhan-L list at the U of Toronto has experienced that in a pretty drastic way. A few times, some weirdos tried to do the same to the Eliot list, but unfortunately they didn't know the subject well enough to get the job done. William Pratt of this list did indeed supply me with a reference for the back door comment. Kenner refers to it in T.S.ELIOT: A COLLECTION OF lITERARY ESSAYS Prentice Hall, 1962: 5. Fortunately I have the book, and indeed it is there. Best wishes, Peter -----Original Message----- From: Chapman To: [log in to unmask] Sent: 2004-Nov-14 5:51 AM Subject: Re: trolling Hi Peter, I would think you mean troll as in 'trolling?': mixing dogs, persons who fish with netting and stunted, ugly creatures together? I had a look in Kenner's 'Art of Poetry' for the back door quote. He has a section on traditions there that I hoped might be useful. Alas, it wasn't so. To your knowledge has anyone on this list located the source of that interesting reference? Cheers, Chris. -----Original Message----- From: - Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Peter Montgomery Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2004 6:08 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: trolling I'm curious. Has this list ever been dogged by trolls as the Eliot list has? (sorry for the mixed metaphor) Cheers, Peter