I was talking about NCAA rules which are the ones that apply to the game we were discussing. (I understand that there are differences between NHL and NCAA rules.) Anyway, do I suspect correctly that if an attacking player in an NCAA Division 1 game, kicks the puck from behind the goal and it bounces off of the goalies pad and across the goal line into the net, that it would not count as a goal? Also, it seems to me that it is always be the "intent" of the attacking player to direct the puck into the net, so the mind reading aspect in this case is pretty simple. It would seem that the definition of "intent" in this case has to be based on the observance of what actually physically happened on the ice. In other words, did he intentionally turn his skate to deflect or direct the puck into the net? The judgment of a ref, it seems to me, has to be based on what he sees, not on what he thought the player might have been thinking or intending. He can probably surmise what the player was thinking from what he saw him do but I would hope that his calls would be 99% based on what he sees. -----Original Message----- From: james acheson [mailto:[log in to unmask]] Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 10:40 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Maine wins 3-2 in OT the issue is, even if it is my intent in the NHL to kick the puck off the goalie's pad, it is a goal... a hockey player is allowed to kick the puck here and there at all levels... you have no doubt see defensemen who have broken a stick keep on playing (like soccer players) kickeing the puck. in college hockey one can kick the puck or intentionally direct it where ever one wants, as long as no goal is scored on teh intentional direction. in the NHL a goal is scored unless a player intentionally directs the puck toward the net, i.e toward teh open part of the goal line. This is not possible from behind the goal line, so a goal scored off a kicked puck from behind the net in the NHL is a goal. does that make sense? you asked how one knows what a player's intent is. reading minds is what refs do all the time. Think of players in the middle of a line change... there are 7 guys on the ice, 4 at the bench. if a puck hits one of them (any of them) it is not a "too many men" penalty. If one of those players plays the puck (with a stick or a skate, hand or even his butt) then it IS a "too many men on the ice" penalty. So how do you know if the guy played the puck or if it just hit him? This is the same question as the one the refs have to ask on the Lawson goal... Did he direct the puck? or did the puck deflect off his skate?, they look to his intent, and they have to read his mind. get it? "Chesley, Clair" <[log in to unmask]> wrote: How do we know that it wasn't your intent to kick the puck off the goalies pad? I suspect that if you intentionally direct or deflect the puck and it goes in whether it's off the goalie or a defenseman, it's not a goal. Any refs out there? I watched that replay a few times too. It looked to me like Lucas "might" have had "some" intentional influence on the direction of the puck but, as in the NFL, there certainly wasn't sufficient evidence to over-rule the call by the official on the ice. It looked to me like his blade was changing angle at the time the puck struck it but there certainly wasn't enough evidence to show intent. The important thing is that the puck went in the net! None of this discussion really matters a hoot except that it's nice to think that the official made the right call! And yes, it's fun to talk about the rules too I suppose! -----Original Message----- From: james acheson [mailto:[log in to unmask]] Sent: Monday, February 03, 2003 8:17 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Maine wins 3-2 in OT I think that the NHL rule says that it si not a goal if there is a kicking motion TOWARD the net. SO that if I kick a puck to a team mate from behind the net (intentionally direct the puck to a teammate from behind the net) and it bounces off the goalie's pad and in, this IS a goal in the NHL because I did not intentionally direct it toward the net, but it is not a goal in NCAA or USA/Olympics because I intentionally directed teh puck with my skate. I did not see Lucas change the angle of his skate as he skated across teh front of the goal. THis looked like it deflected off his skate and he did not intentionally direct it (in any direction) But heck if we can take the OT goal against BC when Mike Motteau was hauled down in the face off dot a couple years ago, we can sure take a questionable goal. [log in to unmask] wrote: The NCAA rule book says that a puck that is deflected off an attacking player and goes in to the net is a goal. However, a few paragraphs later, it says that a player cannot intentionally deflect a puck into the net. By contrast, the NHL rule book is explicitly that a puck deflected into the net by a skate is a goal, unless the attacking player deflects the puck with a "kicking motion." So, the NCAA rules don't require a distinct kicking motion, just "intent" to deflect by the attacking player. Did Lucas intentionally deflect the puck into the net? Perhaps, but it's not as clearcut as the Fox NE announcers would have us believe. _____ Do you Yahoo!? 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