Charles Moyer wrote, <<Wei, If you take the ideogram T'ai 4, "big" and take off that little tear-drop pecker stroke, you get Ta4 "man", then put him in a box, you get Yin1 "argument". That is brilliant, isn't it? How did it get from "prison" to "argument"? Just like with Pound, eh? Some of us keep pulling him out of the box to show a man, and you keep putting him back in. LOL CM>> I hope you don't mind if I point out that these are not the right definitions of those particular ideograms. You can look them up, or I can define them for you if you like. See Terrell's index, or Matthew's Chinese Dictionary (one that Pound used). As regards the the last point. We might just as easily say it was Pound who put himself in a box, by choosing his particular political allegiances. Incidentally he uses the ideogram En1 in the Pisan Cantos (which happens to be same "en" as the one in Wei En Lin), which is a picture of a man in a box -- or "prison" -- with a heart underneath. It means "mercy". Looking at our discussion from the broadest possible perspective, your point is probably right. Maybe we should all take ourselves out of the box, what ever that might mean, and show each other "En1" (which can also mean "compassion"). Regards, Wei ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com