Tim Romano wrote: >Subject: Re: What about saying RELIGIOUSLY, Pound was an ORTHODOX >CONFUCIAN?? > >Wei, >I do not doubt that you are correct with respect to its central importance >for Pound, but you have merely asserted, and have not demonstrated, that >the >Ta Hio was considered by Pound to be a "metaphysical" and "theological" >document. The "axe" metaphor suggests that Pound saw the Ta Hio, if >anything, as an "anti-metaphysical" document, something with which to cut >through the "jungle" of "Western idealism". Rather like Occam's razor. And >the remaining quotes you have offered, while they do go to your point about >the weight Pound assigned this document, indicate that Pound regarded the >Ta >Hio as primarily a secular document, i.e. a document governing the mundane >behavior of peoples engaging in social intercourse and civilized commerce. You are essentially correct, insofar as I need to elucidate the evidence further. First, there is nothing secular about Confucianism or Confucius (in the Western sense of the word). It implies a metaphysic, and the Confucian texts state metaphysical principles (in other words, they do more than simply make statements about social behavior; the texts make statements about the supernatural, and about the relationship between men living in society and the proper attitude toward the supernatural. More on that later). Let me point to feature of the Pound quotes which are "metaphysical". While you are right that parts of the texts are anti-metaphysical (in that they can be used to combat the "wrong" metaphysic); they also reaffirm another metaphysic, the "correct" one. Pound demonstrates awareness of this, though I think it is difficult to find an analogy in Western thought to make it easy to understand. (Perhaps it is similar to certain types of Aristoteleanism, which can be used to demolish some metaphysical presumptions, but which, can also be used to affirm other metaphysical postulates, such as that of the Unmoved Mover .... I am NOT saying Confucius does THIS precisely. . . I just suggest it as an analogy). Lets look at Pound's words, and then at the TA HIO itself. ". . . .considering a value already age-old, and never to end while men are . . . " This implies an essential or eternal ethic, which transcends all cultures and times. Not sufficient I admit, but go further: [T]he whole of Western idealism is a jungle. Christian theology is a jungle. To think through it, to reduce it to some semblance of order, there is no better axe than the Ta Hio (SP, 78). Notice he does not want to do away with, or demolish theology (or idealism, for that matter); the passage simply means he wants it "put it in order." Confucian theology does exist in the TA HIO. Pound likes the TA HIO, because its theology is simple, straightforward, not because the work is totally anti-metaphysical. The same type of thinking applies to his talk of 'virtu' There exists passage after passage in our serious medieval thinkers which contains the terms 'virtu,' virtus, with vivid and dynamic meaning. But it is precisely the kind of thought that is now atrophied in the Occident. This is precisely how we do not now think. It is for these values that we have need of Ta Hio . . . (SP, 78). Pound here is praising Medieval theology, as he does elsewhere. He does not dismiss the medieval texts because they are in themselves theological, or because they contain metaphysical presuppostions. Confucianism itself has such presuppostions, but they are more orderly, "vivid" and "dynamic" concepts, Pound thinks. The ground for Virtu in both Western medieval theology, and in Confucian thought, has its origin in an otherworldly source: God or Heaven. Remember Pound says, No one has ever yet exhausted the wisdom of the forty-six ideograms of the first chapter (SP, 79). Well, look at the first chapter: Note the reference to the "decrees of Heaven." Legge's translation runs as follows: Chapter I 1. In the announcement to K'ang, it is said, 'He was able to make his virtue illustrious.' 2. In the Tai Chia, it is said, 'He contemplated and studied the ILLUSTRIOUS DECREES OF HEAVEN" [emphasis added] 3. In the Canon of the Emperor (Yao), it is said, 'He was able to make illustrious his lofty virtue. 4. These passages all show how those sovereigns made themselves illustrious (Legge, The Chinese Classics, vol. 1, 360-361). "Heaven" (or "Tian" in Chinese) is a metaphysical concept. It is vague, and difficult to define, but definitlely a metaphysical principle, which is losely analygous to Aristotle's Unmoved Mover, and has as part of its significance the idea of a MORAL PATTERN, which all should follow, especially the ruler (who himself is the pattern --exemplar --for his subjects). So how does this relate to Pound's polytheism and his pagan beliefs? Quite directly I would say. You can see how Pound expresses his metaphysical views in his rendering of the following passage (from a Confucian classic) by using both the words "spirits" and "gods." Where Legge says the spirits "cause all the people . . . to array themselves in their richest dresses, in order to attend at their sacrifices," Pound writes, "they impel the people . . . to array themselves for the rites, to carry human affairs to the cognizance of the gods with their sacrifice" (Con., 13). The reference to the "gods," which has no textual justification, I would argue, derives from the poet's syncretist impulse, his desire to equate the Greek pagan and Chinese spiritual cosmologies. There is nothing in Confucianism which does not encourage some form of worship of gods/spirits . . . On the contrary, proper rites and reverence toward the spirits are required. Pound also renders a longer passage concerning spirits from the Book of Poetry (the Odes), that is not quoted in the original Chung Yung. Part of Pound's passage reads, The thought of the multitude Can not grasp the categories Of the thoughts of the SPIRITS [emphasis added] Circumvolving, but the tense mind Can shoot arrows toward them (Con., 13). The fact that the spirits have "thoughts" in Pound's unwarranted addition, and that they "impel the people," indicates that Pound believed such spirits (or gods) have some sort of independent existence, as he asserts both in the Guide to Kulchur and Axiomata. Of course, Confucius himself refers numerous times to the existence of spirits as a positive fact. It is a common misconception of Confucian thought to think it is secular, agnostic, or atheistical. This might require more evidence, probably, to be established according to your satisfaction. You conclude: >The problem Pound identified in the predominant strains of western >judeo-christian idealism, is that, with its eye on eschatology, it was >otherworldy, rejecting the notion of individual and collective human >achievement, and infusing human sexuality with guilt. This strain of >western >religious teaching (a typical tract would be "On Generation and >Corruption") >would create more T.S. Eliots, not more William Carlos Williamses. >Tim Romano > I think you are right about Pound's diagnosis of Christianity. Right on the mark. But it should be made clear that neither Pound, nor Confucius, reject the otherworldly or the existence of gods (or spirits). They both, in fact, affirm it the other world. However, they do so in a way which (by Western standards) appears less dogmatic less tied to specific assertions about the nature of the other world. (In actual fact the Confucian standards for the forms of the rites were as rigid or more rigid than Western standards; the content of "belief" was less regulated). Regards, Wei http://www.geocities.com/weienlin/religion.html ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com