i REALLY enjoy Mr. Wei' analysis. I think it makes so much sense - and there is not a thesis that cannot be scorned by a half - witted mind and a quick toungue...keep it up Mr. Wei! >From: "R. Gancie/C.Parcelli" <[log in to unmask]> >Reply-To: [log in to unmask] >To: [log in to unmask] >Subject: Re: The Acropolis is "worth more than any metaphysical argument" >Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 21:30:36 +0000 > >My post was 'perhaps', Wei, more geared to prompt some recognition on >your part of your Pollyannish views on democracy--Athenian and American. >Your physiocrat stuff was insubstantial but I suspect there is not much >there anyway. The rest of your piece, from my perpsective, has all of >the problems of your posts and most of the same information. Nice >gymnastics on the Greeks; but how are you when you have to play in >somebody else's ballpark? CP > >En Lin Wei wrote: > > > > "C.Parcelli" <[log in to unmask]> wrote > > > > <<Subject: Re: What is particularly bad or undemocratic in this? > > > > Perhaps, Pound did not support the notion of Athenian democracy because > > it was in actuality anything but democratic. >> > > > > We know precisely why Pound opposed Greek democracy. He stated the >reason > > in the Guide to Kulchur. Pound prefers the Roman Empire and Confucian > > totalitarianism to the "loose talk of argumentative greeks." > > > > "Rome was the responsible ruler . . . The sense of responsibility , the > > need for cooordination of individuals expressed in Kung's teacing >differs > > radically both from early Christain absolutism and from the maritime > > adventure morals of Odysseus or the loose talk of argumentative greeks . >. > > ." (GK, 38). > > > > Aristotle's Politics speaks quite favorably of democracy. Pound >however, > > says "As a working hyupothesis say that Kung is superior to Aristotle by > > totalitarian instinct . . ." (GK, 279) > > > > Another problem would be "the love of wisdom or the responsibility of >that > > carries wisdom into details in action is not a Greek glory but a Roman." > > (GK, 40) So much for the Plutarch's lives, so much for Solon, Lycurgus, > > Themistocles, Pericles, Alcibiades, Demosthenes, and even Alexander (a > > person we might expect Pound to admire). I don't think Pound mentions >any > > of these historical figures in favorable light (or in any light for that > > matter, except for Alexander). Let me know if you can find any >references > > to Greek democrats. Of course, in the guide to Kulchur we have the >quote: > > > > "Battle of Cheronea. END of liberty. Achaia a Roman province. > > Headline or whatever, B.C. 146 " > > > > refering to the demise of Europe's first democratic civilization. >Doesn't > > seem to trouble him too much, this "end of liberty", but this is > > understandable in light of great praise of Mussolini scattered >throughout > > the Guide to Kulchur, and in light of his praise of Confucian > > totalitarianism. For example, in this passage he praises Mussolini for >the > > victories of fascism and BLAMES ARISTOTLE for fascism's imperfection. > > > > "I wd. go even further and state in parenthesis, with the date Ap 16 >anno > > XV, that the things still needing to be remedied in the Italian state >are > > due to an Aristotelic residuum left in Mussolini's own mind. Despite >all he > > has sloughed off in evolving his totalitarian formulae." (GK, 309). > > > > I think you will agree that there is nothing in any of these statements >to > > indicate that Pound disliked the Athenian democratic system because it >was > > not democratic ENOUGH. > > > > Now, allow me to briefly address your claim that: 2) Athens was not a > > democracy. > > > > It is a bit beside the point, since Pound did not seem to care about > > Athenian democracy, or about any of its heroes. Now, I have heard Zaire > > referred to as a kleptocracy (and the government of Rhodes, because of >the > > high consumption of seaweed, was perhaps refered to as a kelp-tocracy); >But > > I have never heard the term used to refer to Athens. How many Greek >rulers > > were depositing their excess funds in Persian or Phoenician banks--- a >la > > Mobutu Sese Seko? : > > > > I would agree with the proposition: Athens was far from being a perfect > > democracy. But what other state came anywhere close during that period > > ?(except for Republican Rome, perhaps. Pound has no interest in the >Roman > > Republicans either. He never mentions, as far as I know, the original > > Brutus, the Grachii, Cincinnatus, Cicero, Cato, Spartacus, or Marcus >Brutus > > the tyrant-slayer) If one looks at Athens in comparison to all it's > > historical competitors, I am hard pressed to find a polity which comes > > closer to the ideals of democracy, in spite of its short-comings (Yes, > > Pericles can be accused for spending too much on the Acropolis, but some >of > > the statues he put up there are "worth more than any metaphysical > > argument"). > > > > Grecophiliac greetings, > > > > Wei > > > > PS. You said, > > > > <<It was part cartel, part > > Lion's Club. . . .That's why our Found[l]ing Fathers, out > > of admiration, erected so many buildings with big, white pillars. Any > > 'leftist' who trucked all the way here to Washington, which I > > affectionately refer to as Satan's Anus, to protest IMF and World Bank > > policies, should be able to make this connection as a matter of >reflex.>> > > > > <<Further, he should realize that there are no 'democratic' Half >Measures > > tolerated inside this money/power nexus.>> > > > > More or less true, I think > > > > <<Have you read Edward Bernays > > 1928 classic, Propaganda, on the method and manner of authoritarian > > control in the so-called democracies?>> > > > > No. Sounds good to me. I look and see if a copy is available in my >area. > > > > <<And Bernays is no Chomsky. He > > worked for the other side.>> > > > > All the more interesting. > > > > <<One of his most famous achievements was to > > supply PR cover for the brutal overthrow of the Arbenz government by the > > CIA and Dept. of State in Guatemala in 1954. CP>> > > > > Pretty horrific. I'd like to know more about Bernays (do you recall if >he > > mentioned in "Bitter Fruit"?) > > ________________________________________________________________________ > > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com