Thanks. I'll give Wood's book a look though my very limited time is currently turned in an entirely different direction. I of course agree with your remarks on Madison etal. Carlo Parcelli Carrol Cox wrote: > > "R.Gancie/C.Parcelli" wrote: > > > > > As for democracy, I've never seen it. A friend of mine who teaches > > classics is preparing (or at least would like to prepare) a paper on > > Athenian democracy in the raw. His conclusion so far is that our > > historical knowledge of democracy comes from Athenian writers who > > actually despised democracy. > > You really should read Ellen Meiksins Wood, *Peasant-Citizen & Slave: > The Foundations of Athenian Democracy* (London & New York: > Verso, 1989). You are of course correct about the sources of our > knowledge of Athenian democracy -- and without the hatred that > democracy inspired in its opponents "western philosophy" as we know > it would not exist. Just once, and once only, did Plato allow an opponent > to speak -- in the reply of Protagoras to the proto-fascist Socrates, > in the dialogue of that name. Plato's usual (deliberate?) distortion or > subversion of his opponents is best illustrated in that (in)famous debate > between Thrasymachus and Socrates in the *Republic*. It would be > hard to recognize from the words Plato gives to Thrasymachus that > the latter is a defender of Athenian democracy -- the key point of which > is that it was won by peasant struggle *against* an aristocracy, not > created by by an Aristocracy (as was u.s. democracy) for the specific > purpose of preventing the development of popular struggles. One might > say without too much exaggeration that the heart and soul of the U.S. > Constitution is to prevent the occurrence of such events as Shay's > Rebellion. Read Madison's Federalist No. 10 and its hatred of > "faction" (i.e., democracy in the Athenian sense). > > Carrol -- ÐÏ à¡± á