ergo: the world by definition is fascist...  is that what is ment by
"fallen"?
 
stoneking
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Robert Kibler <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Friday, August 27, 1999 9:02 AM
Subject: Re: EP and academics
 
 
> Where is the social program that does not create a boundary between those
who fit within it, and those who are outside? I may not agree with such
boundary making, but as a phenomenon it is so ubiquitous on the planet that
we should perhaps hedge a little before pointing a finger at fascism as the
example. In my experience, and according to what I have read about
Nationalism and the formation of national identities, there are collective
psychological causes behind both the formation of a national identies or
boundaries. Schlegel and Ardt's call for a German identify separate from an
Englightenment identity, for example, was rooted in some need for a group of
folk in the backwater of European culture to be heard on their own. To do
this, the Germans needed to formulate a national, rather than a European
identify. So it has always been.  The degree to which the boundary
separating those within from those without becomes a victimizing one often
has to do with the amount of external pressure put upon those within.. The
more the pressure, the clearer the delineation between an us and a them, the
more narrow the definition of the us as opposed to the them, and the more
malevolent the treatment of those who are them.
>    In good times, the same folk celebrate diversity.
>
> >>> William Stoneking <[log in to unmask]> 08/27 7:31 AM >>>
> Fascism has as one of its guiding tenets the exclusion of certain groups
of
> people...
> who do not belong within the identifiable boundaries (guiding mythologies)
> of the
> group in power (the group which sets the agenda for what is right,
valuable
> and
> worthy of perpetration).... it makes victims of those who are not
identified
> with the
> fatherland... indeed, with Fascism, the myth of of national identity
demands
> an
> exclusionary clause... an us and them mentality is central to this...
i.e.:
> the
> farthest point one can go from a Confucian ethic which upholds the ideal
of
> jen
> (human-heartedness) in all human intercourse. Ironically, to the extent
that
> Pound list members exclude some of their fellows on the basis of academic
vs
> non-academic, published vs non-published.... and to the degree that they
use
> this perception in order to promote their own identity, etc... to this
> degree they
> are fascist.
>
> Stoneking
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Robert Kibler <[log in to unmask]>
> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Friday, August 27, 1999 8:15 AM
> Subject: Re: EP and academics
>
>
> > No, I certainly would not, and in fact, for years, just the opposite was
> true. I judged the magnicifent ideality of the Soviet Constitution--or the
> communist experiment--by the actuality of Soviet communism. Having lived
in
> China, and having travelled extensively in the Societ Union, I have seen
> first hand the oppression an ideal social program can bring to actual
social
> situations. So when in graduate school, where many students and faculty
> remain fashionably Marxist, I took the position that we should not be
> irresponsibly wielding political ideologies as a literary tool, when they
> have caused so much damage to human beings on the planet. Lit crit should
> not exist or operate in a complete vacuum. Lit crit should not separate
> ideological cause from real time effect.
> >     But you know, I am not as sure now that any social ideology causes
the
> damage--whether it is democratic, national socialist, monarchist, fascist,
> roman catholic, protestant--what have you. All they do is prove--their
> presence proves--that people want to bond together for protection against
> enemies real and imagined. They want to believe in something, be
productive,
> triumphant, and in the right. And they want the rewards that should come
> from right action.  But the ideologies themselves simply become a vehicle
> for those who would drive them. And those who do drive them--they are
nearly
> always the problem. They can take any ideology where they want it to go.
> >      Fascism is no better nor worse than any of the other isms out
there.
> And it has a beauty--a good intention, in ways--and in ways, it even
> resulted in some positive social effects. What did Pound say--he wished
that
> his work would be examined in its parts, and not taken and judged at once,
> as a whole. The Fascist doctrinal texts deserve a read--as does the
> communist manifesto, and the historical records of the See of Peter. And
in
> like manner, we should learn to separate out what is positive from what is
> negative, even from that which seems to have an overwhelming amount of the
> negative to it.  My response that fascism gets a rap is directed against
> wholesale judgements. It is so easy to say 'and yes, fascism,' then roll
our
> eyes and bond in agreement that it was a horrible, despicable nightmare
for
> the world and for people. It may have been that too. But I would suggest
> that we not consider THAT the whole story, that we instead look at the
story
> in its parts.
> >     As society, like academia, moves further and further away from
> condoning or promoting anything like independent thought,  the accepted
use
> of history is as a series of summary, wholistic soundbites. They are,
after
> all, a lot easier to acquire than is a diverse judgement of parts. And
such
> wholistic judgements are becoming the ever more requisite shibboleths to
> social acceptance.
> >    Call it a quirk, but of this I am wary.
> > >>> Daniel Pearlman <[log in to unmask]> 08/26 9:16 PM >>>
> > I'm sure you would not judge the actuality of Soviet communism
> > by the magnificent ideality of the Soviet Constitution.
> >
> > ==Dan
> >
> > At 05:49 PM 8/26/99 -0500, you wrote:
> > >As a utopian vision, Fascism has some merit. Mussollini's manifesto,
for
> > example, promotes some of the same kind of ideas as does Confucius--a
need
> > for order, but within order, flexibility. The need to subordinate the
> > individual to the whole. Some may argue against the merit of this--and I
> am
> > not sure that I like it myself--but it is the same impulse that built us
> > great cathedrals in the middle ages, for example. Like fashion, certain
> > terms, like certain writers, become throw aways--especially in the
> academy.
> >  That is, for years, it was fashionable to condemn Nietzsche, because of
> > the alleged connection between his philosophy and the Nazis. It in fact
> was
> > so easy to condemn him that no one had to read him. Yet there is no Nazi
> in
> > Nietzsche. If anything, he is sort of Buddhist. For years (even now) it
> has
> > been easy to throw away Pound, rather than to read him. How many of you
> > have encountered resistance somewhere along the line when you suggested
> > that you liked Pound? How many people have had difficulty getting
> > professors to teach him? What is his place in the Modernist anthologies?
> > Likewise, there are some darn compelling essays on fascism as a social
> > program.
> > >   And they finally got those swamps drained in Italy, right?
> > >
> > >>>> Joe Brennan <[log in to unmask]> 08/26 5:26 PM >>>
> > >since I'm obviously (I thought) punning, it has several meanings --
> assent,
> > >of course, and also a comment on pound's "political leanings."
> > >
> > >jb....
> > >
> > >In a message dated 8/26/99 3:41:29 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> > [log in to unmask]
> > >writes:
> > >
> > ><<
> > > i trust this acknowledges your assent, and not a
> > > declaration of political leanings...
> > >
> > > Stoneking
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: Joe Brennan <[log in to unmask]>
> > > To: <[log in to unmask]>
> > > Sent: Thursday, August 26, 1999 3:05 PM
> > > Subject: Re: EP and academics
> > >
> > >
> > > > or even  right on....
> > > >
> > > > In a message dated 8/26/99 2:53:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> > > > [log in to unmask] writes:
> > > >
> > > > << right.
> > > > >>
> > >
> > HOME:
> > Dan Pearlman
> > 102 Blackstone Blvd. #5
> > Providence, RI 02906
> > Tel.: 401 453-3027
> > email: [log in to unmask]
> > Fax: (253) 681-8518
> > http://www.uri.edu/artsci/english/clf/
> >
> > OFFICE
> > Department of English
> > University of Rhode Island
> > Kingston, RI 02881
> > Tel.: 401 874-4659
> >
>