>>>>> " " == Hawkins, Jeffrey N <[log in to unmask]> writes:
 
 > John, I am new to this list and feel that I do agree with you in
 > most of what you are saying.  Being an MSU alumni, maybe I can
 > explain some of the Spartan fans behavior.
 
 > Keep in mind that I was at MSU from 87-90 so I am sure some things
 > may have changed.
 
>> [F] To end with a positive (for Yost), I'm not aware of visitors
>> being subjected to physical abuse at Yost.
 
 > When I attended games at Yost the Spartan fans outnumbered the
 > Michigan fans about 60-40.  I could never understand why the UM
 > team didn't get any support.  Of course they were a middle of the
 > pack CCHA team at the time.
 
Yes, things have changed.  The crowd is now very vocal, and very
pro-Michigan.  They are not outnumbered by any visitng team's fans.
 
 > Like I've said many
>> times before (I'm sure everyone is sick of hearing it), visiting
>> Munn at Michigan State means taking about a 50-50 chance (maybe
>> down to 40-60 now) that you'll be hit by a Spartan fan, or...more
>> likely...a group of Spartan fans.  They tend to be vocal in small
>> numbers, physical in large numbers.
 
 > I have never seen or heard of anything like this.  The only time I
 > have heard of MSU fans going after other fans was at a Notre Dame
 > football game.  However I have been harassed by UM football fans
 > many, many, times.  Most of which had no affiliation with the
 > University in the first place.  Which seems to be the case with
 > most UM fans.  I think this is what causes MSU fans to cheer
 > against the Wolverines.
 
So what we've heard here is that a UM guy claims that it is physically
dangerous for a UM fan to go to Munn, and a MSU guy claims that MSU
fans get harassed at the Big House.  Who's right?  I'm sure that there
is truth in both of these statements, so I guess fans can be obnoxious
no matter where you go.
 
 >  I was disappointed that the MSU fans
>> cheered for the WCHA schools while most of the Michigan fans
>> cheered for State.
 
 > I don't want to take anything away from UM.  They have one of the
 > best athletic programs in the country, however: their fans tend to
 > be very abrasive.
 
I really think that your apparently intense hatred of UM fans might
make them seem more abrasive than they really are.
 
 > The media in the Detroit area is also biased.
 > Everything is PRO-MICHIGAN.  MSU always takes a back seat.
 
This is very true, and I'm sure that it goes a long way towards
explaining the incredible loathing some MSU fans seem to have toward
UM.  The Detroit media has a huge pro-UM slant.  I don't know why this
is true, though, since there are an incredible number of MSU almuni
living in the Detroit area.
 
 > If Shawn Respert played for Michigan, he would have been on the cover
 > of Sports Illustrated 3 times by now.
 
The Detroit media has no say in what Sports Illustrated puts on their
cover.
 
 > When MSU went to the Rose
 > Bowl in 1988, the television stations went to Ann Arbor to get the
 > Michigan fans reaction.  "Who cared?"  MSU was in the Rose Bowl not
 > UM.  The fans were wearing Maroon and Gold and cheering for USC.
 
They located a small group of jerks.  Most UM fans are Big Ten
all-the-way.  I was rooting for MSU, and all my UM fan friends were
rooting for MSU.  The media, of course, wanted to show the most
"interesting" footage possible.  But that media report in no way can
be construed to be any kind of scientific poll.  Don't believe
everything you see on TV.
 
 > I was at a Wings game one night when MSU blew a 15pt lead and lost
 > in OT to the Fab Five.  When they announced that MSU was up 15 you
 > could have heard a pin drop.  When they announced that UM had won,
 > you would have thought that the Wings had just won game seven of
 > the Stanley Cup final.
 
So this proves that more UM fans were at that particular wings game.
Which proves........absolutely nothing.
 
 > Some guy sitting next to me said, "That's great.  I hate Michigan
 > State."  I asked him where he went to school.  He didn't.  He just
 > didn't like MSU's colors.
 
He was an idiot.
 
 > The point I am trying to make, as I babble on here, is that most
 > MSU  fans have either attended or had relatives attend MSU.  UM
 > attracts all the fair weather fans, who tend to be the most
 > obnoxious  and abrasive people around.
 
UM has a *huge* population of alumni, all across the country, so there
are a *lot* of UM fans that are in some way affiliated.  Have you
taken some sort of scientific poll to determine the number of
unaffiliated UM fans vs. the number of unaffiliated MSU fans?
 
You also seem to think that all UM fans who have no affiliation with
UM are fair weather fans.  I wonder if this is really true.  Do the
unaffiliated fans drop their UM support when UM is having a down year?
For example, did these "abrasive" and "obnoxious" people suddenly stop
supporting the UM football team this year?
 
 > I think that the reason Spartan fans cheer against
 > UM is because they are sick of always being the second best team in
 > the state.
 
Now we're getting to the real root of the problem...Spartan fans are
jealous of the success that UM enjoys year after year.
 
 > Even when MSU beats Michigan there are always excuses,
 > especially in the media.  The Desmond Howard trip is the one
 > example I can think of.  The media went on for a month about how
 > MSU should never have won, UM got screwed etc.  They never
 > mentioned that Alexander was 8ft out of bounds on UM's first TD,
 > that Carlson missed a 19 yd FG to end the half, that UM fumbled on
 > the MSU 2 with MSU recovering but the officials ruled the ground
 > caused it (Replay showed the ball was lose before he even started
 > to fall).  UM scored on the next play. They never mentioned the
 > fact that UM dropped 8 passes in the 4th quarter, or most
 > importantly, UM would have had to run the 2pt conversion again and
 > may have been stopped anyway.  Not once was any of this mentioned.
 > It was just UM got screwed, and they were still talking about it
 > the next year.  Not once was MSU given any credit at all.
 
Hey this is a hockey list, not a football list.  But in any case, it's
always true that an officiating error on the last play of the game
gets much more scrutiny than earlier mistakes.  This has nothing to do
with UM or MSU.
 
 > With this kind of thing going on all the time, I can understand why
 > some MSU fans cheer against Michigan.
 
 > Personally, I go BIG TEN and CCHA all the way.  I hope I didn't
 > ramble on too much.  I was just trying to explain the actions of
 > the MSU fans.
 
 > Jeff H MSU '87-90'
 
I think people on this list might be getting a small hint of the
hugely intense rivalry between UM and MSU fans.  But it does seem to
me, as a very biased UM fan and alumnus, that MSU fans hate UM more
than UM fans hate MSU, that jerk at the Redwings game notwithstanding.
I always wish MSU the best of luck in their postseason endeavors,
unless they are playing UM.
 
 
-Alan Harder
 [log in to unmask]
 Go Blue!
 
The above commentary, which does not *even* represent the opinion of
the American Mathematical Society, is sold by weight, not by volume.
Some settling of the contents may have occurred during shipping.