Ditto
Though I think the Fighting Dakotans has a certain ring to it.... :)
-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Woodbury
Sent: Tuesday, June 04, 2013 12:29 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Fighting Sioux (part N...)
Well done. Thank you.
On Jun 4, 2013, at 11:51 AM, J. Michael Neal wrote:
> All right, I'll give it a try . . .
>
> There really is something very different between "Fighting Irish" and
> "Fighting Sioux". The University of Notre Dame, while founded by French
> Jesuits, has had an Irish Catholic president since about 1860, well before
> they adopted the name. That is an entirely different context for the
> adoption of the name than is a situation in which you have conquered
> people, stolen their lands, and then appropriated their names, symbols,
> and images for your own use. If you don't understand why the distinction
> between "us" and "them" is important, I can't explain it to you but I
> think that not getting it betrays a woeful lack of empathy. It's that
> distinction that makes the issue of using Native American mascots
> important. They really should only be used with the permission of the
> peoples themselves.
>
> Now, on to North Dakota and why this particular case turned into such a
> mess. When the NCAA finally woke up to the fact that this was a serious
> issue that needed to be addressed, various member institutions reacted in
> different ways. At one end of the spectrum you had Florida State; FSU had
> always recognized the importance of the issue and not only had gotten
> permission from the Seminole tribe to use the name, they paid the tribe a
> licensing fee all along. So they had no problem keeping the name. Then
> you had schools that either changed their name without making it much of
> an issue or tried to find a path through which they secured permission
> from the tribe whose name they were using. With this in mind, the NCAA
> set forth a rule that said that if a school could get a tribe to pass a
> referendum okaying the use of a tribal name, it was okay to use it.
>
> Then there was North Dakota, which threw a temper tantrum about the very
> idea that this was an important issue. They fought the NCAA at every step
> of the way and turned it into the biggest possible pain in the ass. They
> finally, after immense foot dragging, submitted to the new NCAA rule.
> There were three bands of Sioux whose permission they needed. Two of them
> passed the resolution. The third said that their band had no legal
> procedure for taking a referendum and that they had no intention of
> creating a special procedure just for this matter. So UND was unable to
> secure the required permissions to keep the name "Sioux".
>
> It's my belief that had UND acted in a cooperative manner instead of
> causing as much trouble for the NCAA as they could then the NCAA would
> have been willing to find a workaround given the odd circumstances.
> However, since UND had been uncooperative to the point of filing lawsuits
> and stirring up the North Dakota legislature (which, I think, they
> eventually wished they hadn't), the NCAA dropped the hammer on them and
> refused to consider any alternatives. UND has no one to blame but itself
> for the way this played out and the fact that the NCAA was unwilling to
> compromise at all. Then you had the legislature deciding to pass a law
> forbidding the university from changing its name, which only made UND's
> situation worse.
>
> So now they are without a nickname until 2015 because the legislators they
> agitated told them they can't.
>
> On 6/4/2013 8:59 AM, Tom wrote:
>> Are they really planning on calling themselves the Coyotes? Why not the
>> fighting Coyotes? Could they get away with calling themselves the Sioux?
>>
>> The one thing in this whole, long process I never understood was why
>> "Fighting Sioux" was an abusive nickname. You have all kinds of
>> nicknames for sports teams (including the "Fighting Irish") and some of
>> them use abusive logos (Chief Wahoo of Cleveland) but this one got all
>> the press. I guess I'm just dense because I still don't get it.
>>
>> Tom Rowe
>>
>> Where are we going and why am I in this handbasket?
>>
>> On 6/4/2013 7:23 AM, John Edwards wrote:
>>> The last line was the best one:
>>> "UND now uses the nickname Coyotes."
>>>
>>> I don't know who would be more surprised by this bit of news: UND (who
>>> is banned from having a nickname until 2015) or USD (who actually *are*
>>> the Coyotes).
>>>
>>> John
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>> On 2013-06-04, at 7:36 AM, Joe Makowiec <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>
>>>>> Two groups of Native Americans do not have standing to keep the
>>>>> University of North Dakota from retiring its use of the controversial
>>>>> "Fighting Sioux" nickname, the 8th Circuit ruled.
>>>> Full story:
>>>>
>>>> http://www.courthousenews.com/2013/05/31/58118.htm
>>>>
>>>> Joe
>>>> --
>>>> Joe Makowiec can be reached at:
>>>> http://makowiec.org/contact/?Joe
>>>> http://makowiec.org/
>>
>
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