Ditto

Though I think the Fighting Dakotans has a certain ring to it....  :)

-----Original Message----- 
From: Bob Woodbury
Sent: Tuesday, June 04, 2013 12:29 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Fighting Sioux (part N...)

Well done. Thank you.

On Jun 4, 2013, at 11:51 AM, J. Michael Neal wrote:

> All right, I'll give it a try . . .
>
> There really is something very different between "Fighting Irish" and 
> "Fighting Sioux".  The University of Notre Dame, while founded by French 
> Jesuits, has had an Irish Catholic president since about 1860, well before 
> they adopted the name.  That is an entirely different context for the 
> adoption of the name than is a situation in which you have conquered 
> people, stolen their lands, and then appropriated their names, symbols, 
> and images for your own use.  If you don't understand why the distinction 
> between "us" and "them" is important, I can't explain it to you but I 
> think that not getting it betrays a woeful lack of empathy.  It's that 
> distinction that makes the issue of using Native American mascots 
> important.  They really should only be used with the permission of the 
> peoples themselves.
>
> Now, on to North Dakota and why this particular case turned into such a 
> mess.  When the NCAA finally woke up to the fact that this was a serious 
> issue that needed to be addressed, various member institutions reacted in 
> different ways.  At one end of the spectrum you had Florida State; FSU had 
> always recognized the importance of the issue and not only had gotten 
> permission from the Seminole tribe to use the name, they paid the tribe a 
> licensing fee all along.  So they had no problem keeping the name.  Then 
> you had schools that either changed their name without making it much of 
> an issue or tried to find a path through which they secured permission 
> from the tribe whose name they were using.  With this in mind, the NCAA 
> set forth a rule that said that if a school could get a tribe to pass a 
> referendum okaying the use of a tribal name, it was okay to use it.
>
> Then there was North Dakota, which threw a temper tantrum about the very 
> idea that this was an important issue.  They fought the NCAA at every step 
> of the way and turned it into the biggest possible pain in the ass.  They 
> finally, after immense foot dragging, submitted to the new NCAA rule. 
> There were three bands of Sioux whose permission they needed.  Two of them 
> passed the resolution.  The third said that their band had no legal 
> procedure for taking a referendum and that they had no intention of 
> creating a special procedure just for this matter.  So UND was unable to 
> secure the required permissions to keep the name "Sioux".
>
> It's my belief that had UND acted in a cooperative manner instead of 
> causing as much trouble for the NCAA as they could then the NCAA would 
> have been willing to find a workaround given the odd circumstances. 
> However, since UND had been uncooperative to the point of filing lawsuits 
> and stirring up the North Dakota legislature (which, I think, they 
> eventually wished they hadn't), the NCAA dropped the hammer on them and 
> refused to consider any alternatives.  UND has no one to blame but itself 
> for the way this played out and the fact that the NCAA was unwilling to 
> compromise at all.  Then you had the legislature deciding to pass a law 
> forbidding the university from changing its name, which only made UND's 
> situation worse.
>
> So now they are without a nickname until 2015 because the legislators they 
> agitated told them they can't.
>
> On 6/4/2013 8:59 AM, Tom wrote:
>> Are they really planning on calling themselves the Coyotes?  Why not the 
>> fighting Coyotes?  Could they get away with calling themselves the Sioux?
>>
>> The one thing in this whole, long process I never understood was why 
>> "Fighting Sioux" was an abusive nickname.  You have all kinds of 
>> nicknames for sports teams (including the "Fighting Irish") and some of 
>> them use abusive logos (Chief Wahoo of Cleveland) but this one got all 
>> the press.  I guess I'm just dense because I still don't get it.
>>
>> Tom Rowe
>>
>> Where are we going and why am I in this handbasket?
>>
>> On 6/4/2013 7:23 AM, John Edwards wrote:
>>> The last line was the best one:
>>> "UND now uses the nickname Coyotes."
>>>
>>> I don't know who would be more surprised by this bit of news: UND (who 
>>> is banned from having a nickname until 2015) or USD (who actually *are* 
>>> the Coyotes).
>>>
>>> John
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>> On 2013-06-04, at 7:36 AM, Joe Makowiec <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>
>>>>> Two groups of Native Americans do not have standing to keep the 
>>>>> University of North Dakota from retiring its use of the controversial 
>>>>> "Fighting Sioux" nickname, the 8th Circuit ruled.
>>>> Full story:
>>>>
>>>> http://www.courthousenews.com/2013/05/31/58118.htm
>>>>
>>>> Joe
>>>> -- 
>>>> Joe Makowiec can be reached at:
>>>> http://makowiec.org/contact/?Joe
>>>> http://makowiec.org/
>>
>