Dear Jacob,

Earlier on this list I had posted an interpretation somewhat the
opposite to yours, but I am not averse to a reading based on
self-mockery.  Anyway, here is my earlier suggestion, followed by
a copy of what I believe to have been the entire discussion
of the subject preceding my own offering:

==Dan

DP: Here's a further suggestion regarding "centaur."

In the context of "vanity," even the lowest of creatures,
viz., the ant, exaggerates or mythologizes its world to
increase its feeling of self-importance, so that its
enemies achieve the romantic dimensions of dragons,
whereas the ant regards himself as a step above dragons,
half-animal/half-human.  To me, the suppressed but
connecting association is the word "myrmidon," deriving
from ant, the soldier who mindlessly obeys orders. I think
that Pound connected the ants he saw with the soldiers
in the camp, thought of the "myrmidons," the ancient soldiery
named after ants, and continued his Greek mythological
game of associations into the Centaur, etc., with satiric
implications regarding the American army.

The passage seems profound enough to have arisen out of
numerous associative pathways, like the ones so far
offered on this list.

==Dan Pearlman

At 01:27 PM 3/11/99 -0500, you wrote:
>Perhaps the triggering association was visual? The ant lifting its head as it
>does, its thorax and abdomen remaining parallel to the ground, might have
evoked the image of the creature with a human trunk and head attached to a
horse's body.
>Cheers,
>Tim
>
>Michael Coyle wrote:
>
>> Not to quibble, Tim, but centaurs are routinely described as "lascivious*;
>> see Kirwoods's *Short Guide to Classical Mythology*, which I cite merely
>> because I've got it here on my desk. "Lascivious" is what I meant by my
>> casual word, "randiness." But in looking at Kirkwood I also learn that I
was
>> mistakenly attributing the wisdom of Chiron, who tutored Achilles and
Jason,
>> among others, with the character of centaurs in general.
>>         Anyway, like I've said, I appreciate your rising to the moment, and
>> your account is better than anything else I've ever seen. As long as Pound
>> wasn't thinking of Chinese notions of "dragon," your note below works. But
>> I'm still not clear why Pound said "centaur."
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Michael
>>
>>         ----------
>>         From:  Tim Romano[SMTP:[log in to unmask]]
>>         Sent:  Thursday, March 11, 1999 12:06 PM
>>         To:  Michael Coyle
>>         Subject:  Re: that centaur ant
>>
Michael,
Alone, "dragon" does not convey all of this meaning. But the phrase
 "the ant ... in <i>his</i> ... world" does connote the world on a small
scale, the ant's scale.  And "dragon world" connotes a world of struggle
and danger, a monstrous world. The ant's the prodigious creature in his world.
>>
Centaurs were uncouth and uncivilized; their appetites were brutish,
"randiness" is more aptly applied to the goat-god.
>>         Tim
>>
Michael Coyle wrote:
>>
Thanks, Tim, for venturing that account. It is certainly consistent with the
way the rest of the canto is usually read, and I find it generally
plausible. Generally, but some details refuse to lay in place. Why
would the trope "dragon" signify a miniature world? And weren't centaurs
more usually fabled for their learning, or randiness, than for their strength
(apart from Chiron, one of the centaurs whom Hercules defeated)?
    It's funny how the recitations of understanding being unnecessary
for enjoying a poem typically arise only where readers can't make
sense of things. I'm not dismissing that position altogether; after all, I
discussed some of Pound's comments in this regard in my book. But criticism
has different responsibilities than poetry . . .
>>         >
  > Michael
>>         >
>>         >         ----------
>>         >         From:  Tim Romano[SMTP:[log in to unmask]]
>>         >         Sent:  Thursday, March 11, 1999 8:02 AM
>>         >         To:  [log in to unmask]
>>         >         Subject:  Re: that centaur ant
>>         >
Michael,
       The line could be paraphrased so: the ant is mighty in its
>> miniature world of life and death struggle.  The implication is that the
ant
>> is a puny creature when regarded from a wider perspective. This exemplum in
>> miniature is quite apt for a poem whose theme is vanity. When we think
ourselves to be Gullivers in a land Lilliputians we suffer from a vain lack of
>> perspective, for we are puny in the wider scheme of things too, though
we may be centaurs in our own sphere of influence. That's how the exemplum
fits in with the exhortation it precedes.
     Pound's mode is consonant here with the one he puts on when speaking
contra Usura.
>>         >         Tim Romano
>>         >
>

At 11:24 AM 8/15/00 -0700, you wrote:
>What does the list think of this reading of the line, "The ant's a centaur
>in his dragon world: the ant is "ego scriptor," the ant fleeing the
>anthill of Europe in an earlier Canto. He thinks he is the wise centaur in
>his world of fantasy. Ironic, self-deprecating, followed by "Pull down thy
>vanity," which is NOT  addressed to the U.S. Army.
>
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