Thanks for the cogent reply and further interesting comments on the lack of
place for apocalypse in what might be called "pure" (i.e. unmingled with
buddhistic) confucian philosophical thought. Undiluted Confucian philosophy
does not conceive of the possibility of an End of Everything. The confucian
state is a sort of perpetual-motion machine, though one which can get
knocked out of equilibrium.

Couldn't the possibility of nuclear cataclysm provide some explanation for
Pound's apparent abandonment of the hard line? To hang your argument
primarily upon the "impurity" and subsequent "collapse" of the confucian
canon seems to me somewhat too theoretical and abstract in light of the
events of the second world war and the unfolding events of the cold war.
The evidence you cited suggests, at least to me, that Pound did not dismiss
the possibility of nuclear cataclysm out of hand.  More on this subject
would be of interest.


> Pound appeared to use the word salvation, I believe, toward the end
> of his life in an almost Christian sense, in the sense of speaking of the
> salvation of the individual soul.  This is what I think he meant in 1960,
> when he said Confucianism could not serve as a religion of salvation,
> and so abandoned Confucianism altogether, without replacing it with
> any specific religious view.


If you believe that towards the end of his life Pound began thinking in
religious salvationist terms, more on his relationship to medieval Christian
texts and the notion of final judgment would be worth exploring. This line
of investigation might bring one to the conclusion that confucianism had
been the predominant philosophy of action during his middle years... but
that Pound's mind had always been *syncretic*.  I sense that you may be
willing to consider the view that Pound was not inflexibly and inexorably
confucian:

> To the extent he was a Confucian, he would have found the idea
> of an apocalypse irrational.

> Pound was thoroughly Confucian in as much as he believed in the
> cycles of Chinese history, the notion that history went through periods
> of moral ascension and moral decline, but excludes total destruction of
> the cosmos.
>

Finally, the term "collapse" implies that Pound did not emerge from Error
but lay buried under a mass of debris, a fallen house of cards. Is that your
take on the poetry from the final period? Or of the middle period? Or both?

Tim Romano



----- Original Message -----
From: En Lin Wei <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2000 6:25 AM
Subject: The Confucian/Apocalyptic Element


> Thanks to Tim Romano for his thoughtful reactions to my essay.
>
> He poses some interesting questions regarding our underlying assumptions
> as critics of Pound.
>
> I will respond to them one by one.
>
> >First, some minor points: I am not sure what was meant by the phrase =
> "the sanctity" of the text.  Is "textual integrity" or "holiness" =
> intended here?
>
>
> This is a dig at text fetishism.  Some Confucianists, like some Biblical
> scholars are text fetishists, in that they see one particular version of
the
> text as holy, definitive, or infallible.
>
> To a lesser extent, this could also be said to be true of some Pound
> scholars,
> who when analyzing Drafts and Fragments, strive to see one particular
> version
> of that section of the Cantos as definitive, as the truest expression of
the
> author's
> intentions.
>
> >Regarding the use of the word "salvation" in the essay : =
> is one speaking of the safe continuance of the peoples -- avoidance of =
> annihilation in a nuclear age-- or of the spiritual salvation of the =
> individual soul, in a religious sense?
>
>
>
> Pound appeared to use the word salvation, I believe, toward the end
> of his life in an almost Christian sense, in the sense of speaking of the
> salvation of the individual soul.  This is what I think he meant in 1960,
> when he said Confucianism could not serve as a religion of salvation,
> and so abandoned Confucianism altogether, without replacing it with
> any specific religious view.
>
> >The essay quotes Pound, wondering whether, in light of the atomic bomb, =
> he should be writing an apocalypse instead of a paradiso. Is there a =
> place in confucian philosophy for the eschatological and the =
> apocalyptic?  An excursion into the history of the confucian response to =
> apocalpyse would be great.
>
>
> This is a fascinating point.  A very, very difficult one to address, in
> fact.
> Confucianism has no response to the Apocalypse for the simple reason
> that the notion is utterly foreign to the homegrown philosophical systems
> of the Chinese.  Taoism, Confucianism, Legalism (Faxue thought), Moism,
> and all the other philosophical schools exclude the very notion of
> apocalypse.
>
> The Sanskritic traditions, of course, do have apocalyptic conceptions, and
> insofar as these were conveyed to China, via Buddhism, they have some
> slight currency in the Chinese philosophical traditions subsequent to the
> fifth
> century AD, which is relatively late in Chinese philosophical history.
>
> [Some Sanskritic philosophies posit the succession of ages which culminate
> in cosmic cataclysms.  None of the catastrophes are utterly final,
however.
> Chinese Buddhism does not emphasize or deal with this issue in any detail,
> as far as I know.  The pragmatic, rather earthly nature of Chinese
> philosophy
> compelled the importers of Buddhism to sheer off even the slightly
> apocalyptic
> elements of the Indian systems.]
>
> Pound was thoroughly Confucian in as much as he believed in the
> cycles of Chinese history, the notion that history went through periods
> of moral ascension and moral decline, but excludes total destruction of
> the cosmos.
>
> Others could speak to this better than
> I, but I don't believe that Pound seriously entertained the notion of an
> apocalypse.  To the extent he was a Confucian, he would have found the
idea
> of an apocalypse irrational.
>
>
> >If, near the end of his life, the poet comes to understand, from =
> contemporary events, that history itself might come to an explosive end, =
> there are two basic responses, it would seem: a redoubling of =
> statecraft-poetry efforts (lifetime and poet's human energy permitting) =
> or renunciation and surrender.  Right?
>
> Yes.  That makes sense to me.  I would certainly argue for the latter in
> Pound's
> case.
>
>
>
> >Or could it be that Pound saw a =
> >poetry of tranquility as a continuation of statecraft, a mode that might
=
> do something to ameliorate international "tensions"?  Perhaps in this =
> final phase of his poetry and his life Pound achieved a *synthesis* of =
> confucian and buddhist thought? Contemplative poetry as political =
> action.
>
>
>
> That would be an attractive solution.  It may have been the solution
> which Pound would have liked, under ideal conditions.
>
> However, Confucianism and Buddhism are essentially impossible to
reconcile;
> or, at the very least, the sort of Confucianism which Pound embraced was
> not consistent with Buddhism.
>
> Clearly such an assertion requires me to elaborate further, but I believe
I
> have provided the evidence necessary to sustain the conclusion.
>
> Thanks for your comments.
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