Dan,
Let me ponder this new reading some. I'll sleep on it. In the meantime,
here's something else for us to think about when engaging these questions:
-- the _reflexive_ nature of the masque in Elizabethan drama
-- the psychological duality implied by the magpie metaphor
The entire libretto _reflects upon itself as an Elizabethan masque reflects
upon the play. The pronouns (I, 'ou, thou, thy, yourself, he) seem
contrived to suggest shifts in speaker, addressee, person spoken about, and
even shifts of time. But a single consciousness might well be the host of
multiple dramatis personae and relationships here.
Tim Romano
----- Original Message -----
From: "Daniel Pearlman" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Tuesday, August 22, 2000 5:08 PM
Subject: Re: The ant's a centaur in his dragon world
> Tim,
>
> Your comments are very interesting and force me to actually
> REREAD the passage we're talking about (wow!). Upon rereading,
> I tend to agree that the ant/centaur, as specifically representing
> the US army, cannot be a central intention of the passage.
>
> But if we look at the whole 3-stanza context of the disputed
> passage (beginning "Ed ascoltando" and ending "I say pull down"),
> a reading emerges that appears to me to support a still different
> reading from either mine or an EP self-chastisement reading.
>
> Briefly, the visionary first stanza shows Pound reassuring himself
> that, in spite of outer disorder ("halls of hell,"), the treasures
> he has accumulated through love, i.e., his own ordered sensibilities,
> are indestructibly preserved.
>
> The following ant/centaur stanza would therefore seem to me to
> function rhetorically as an attempt to pass on this wisdom
> (EP's discovery of the true locus of Order/beauty) to "man,"
> who I think is the implied addressee, as suggested when Pound
> writes, "it is not man/ Made courage, or made order, or made
> grace. Why would he be chastising *himself* in this stanza about
> the true nature and source of Order/beauty, if he has already
> achieved illumination on this score via the vision of the prior
> stanza?
>
> Lastly, in the final stanza of the passage, it hardly seems to
> me that Pound is addressing himself, in using the second-person
> pronoun, when the addressee is characterized as "Rathe to destroy,"
> etc. EP would hardly characterize himself as a destroyer.
>
> So I think the whole passage goes from an initial vision of
> the indestructible Order within himself, to a passage pointing
> "man" to the analog of Order in Nature, to a passage chastising
> the whole contemporary world of Man for disorder--not simply
> in regard to esthetic considerations (Paquin) but in regard to
> the entire moral spectrum.
>
> ==Dan
>
> At 03:53 PM 8/22/00 -0400, you wrote:
> >Dan,
> >I'm firmly in the camp that considers this section of the poem to be a
kind
> >of self-chastisement, yet with the self-appraisal being not entirely
> >negative but counter-balanced with a sense that the intention and the
> >artistic endeavor have been worthy.
> >
> >
> > To have done instead of not doing ...
> > To have with decency knocked ...
> > To have gathered from the air a live tradition
> >
> >These, it is stated, are "not vanity".
> >
> >Isn't it fair to say that the implied addressee somehow considers
> >himself/themselves to be an artist, an actor in the sphere of aesthetic
> >invention? The poet reminds whoever it is he is addressing (himself, I
> >think):
> >
> > Learn of the green world what can be thy place
> > In scaled invention or true artistry...
> >
> >When has the army ever been interested in _true artistry_? And how does
one
> >fit "Paquin" (the Parisian dress designer) into the ant-as-myrmidon
reading?
> >
> > Pull down thy vanity,
> > Paquin pull down!
> > The green casque has outdone your elegance.
> >
> >When has the army ever been interested in the concept of _elegance_
except
> >perhaps with regard to the efficient lethalness of a new weapon?
> >
> >I would draw attention again to the notion of _scale_ that informs this
> >passage, which is echoed in the phrase "_scaled_ invention".
> >Ant...centaur...dragon. This is all consonant with the theme of personal
> >Vanity and perspective--Gulliver among the Lilliputians finding out that
he
> >is not at all as big as he thinks himself to be.
> >
> >Tim Romano
> >
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Daniel Pearlman" <[log in to unmask]>
> >To: <[log in to unmask]>
> >Sent: Tuesday, August 22, 2000 2:08 PM
> >Subject: Re: The ant's a centaur in his dragon world
> >
> >
> >> Those Trachis lines would seem to support my suggestion that
> >> the ant/centaur of 81 is more likely to refer to the US army
> >> than to Pound himself.
> >>
> >> ==Dan
> >>
> >> At 08:33 AM 8/22/00 -0400, you wrote:
> >> >Dan Pearlman recently pulled up from his files an exchange we had here
> >last
> >> >year, regarding this line from Canto 81:
> >> >
> >> > The ant's a centaur in his dragon world...
> >> >
> >> >In that exchange, I took issue with Michael Coyle's characterization
of
> >the
> >> >man-beast as "lascivious" and "randy". I described the centaur as
> >> >"prodigious". In re-reading Women of Trachis, I've found some lines
that
> >> >shed some more light on Pound's exemplum; here, Herakles is speaking:
> >> >
> >> >... and those unsociable bardots, half man and half horse,
> >> >the whole gang of them all together
> >> >ARROGANT, LAWLESS, SURPASSING STRONG...
> >> >
> >> >[ emphasis mine]
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >Tim Romano
> >> >
> >> HOME:
> >> Dan Pearlman
> >> 102 Blackstone Blvd. #5
> >> Providence, RI 02906
> >> Tel.: 401 453-3027
> >> email: [log in to unmask]
> >> Fax: (253) 681-8518
> >> http://www.uri.edu/artsci/english/clf/
> >>
> >> OFFICE
> >> Department of English
> >> University of Rhode Island
> >> Kingston, RI 02881
> >> Tel.: 401 874-4659
> >>
> >>
> >
> HOME:
> Dan Pearlman
> 102 Blackstone Blvd. #5
> Providence, RI 02906
> Tel.: 401 453-3027
> email: [log in to unmask]
> Fax: (253) 681-8518
> http://www.uri.edu/artsci/english/clf/
>
> OFFICE
> Department of English
> University of Rhode Island
> Kingston, RI 02881
> Tel.: 401 874-4659
>
>
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