i REALLY enjoy Mr. Wei' analysis. I think it makes so much sense - and there
is not a thesis that cannot be scorned by a half - witted mind and a quick
toungue...keep it up Mr. Wei!




>From: "R. Gancie/C.Parcelli" <[log in to unmask]>
>Reply-To: [log in to unmask]
>To: [log in to unmask]
>Subject: Re: The Acropolis is "worth more than any metaphysical argument"
>Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 21:30:36 +0000
>
>My post was 'perhaps', Wei, more geared to prompt some recognition on
>your part of your Pollyannish views on democracy--Athenian and American.
>Your physiocrat stuff was insubstantial but I suspect there is not much
>there anyway. The rest of your piece, from my perpsective, has all of
>the problems of your posts and most of the same information. Nice
>gymnastics on the Greeks; but how are you when you have to play in
>somebody else's ballpark? CP
>
>En Lin Wei wrote:
> >
> > "C.Parcelli" <[log in to unmask]> wrote
> >
> > <<Subject: Re: What is particularly bad or undemocratic in this?
> >
> > Perhaps, Pound did not support the notion of Athenian democracy because
> > it was in actuality anything but democratic. >>
> >
> > We know precisely why Pound opposed Greek democracy.  He stated the
>reason
> > in the Guide to Kulchur.  Pound prefers the Roman Empire and Confucian
> > totalitarianism to the "loose talk of argumentative greeks."
> >
> > "Rome was the responsible ruler . . .  The sense of responsibility , the
> > need for cooordination of individuals expressed in Kung's teacing
>differs
> > radically both from early Christain absolutism and from the maritime
> > adventure morals of Odysseus or the loose talk of argumentative greeks .
>.
> > ."  (GK, 38).
> >
> > Aristotle's Politics speaks quite favorably of democracy.  Pound
>however,
> > says "As a working hyupothesis say that Kung is superior to Aristotle by
> > totalitarian instinct . . ." (GK, 279)
> >
> > Another problem would be "the love of wisdom or the responsibility of
>that
> > carries wisdom into details in action is not a Greek glory but a Roman."
> > (GK, 40)  So much for the Plutarch's lives, so much for Solon, Lycurgus,
> > Themistocles, Pericles, Alcibiades, Demosthenes, and even Alexander (a
> > person we might expect Pound to admire).   I don't think Pound mentions
>any
> > of these historical figures in favorable light (or in any light for that
> > matter, except for Alexander).  Let me know if you can find any
>references
> > to Greek democrats.  Of course, in the guide to Kulchur we have the
>quote:
> >
> > "Battle of Cheronea.  END of liberty.  Achaia a Roman province.
> > Headline or whatever, B.C. 146  "
> >
> > refering to the demise of Europe's first democratic civilization.
>Doesn't
> > seem to trouble him too much, this "end of liberty", but this is
> > understandable in light of great praise of Mussolini scattered
>throughout
> > the Guide to Kulchur, and in light of his praise of Confucian
> > totalitarianism.  For example, in this passage he praises Mussolini for
>the
> > victories of fascism and BLAMES ARISTOTLE for fascism's imperfection.
> >
> > "I wd. go even further and state in parenthesis, with the date Ap 16
>anno
> > XV, that the things still needing to be remedied in the Italian state
>are
> > due to an Aristotelic residuum left in Mussolini's own mind.  Despite
>all he
> > has sloughed off in evolving his totalitarian formulae."  (GK, 309).
> >
> > I think you will agree that there is nothing in any of these statements
>to
> > indicate that Pound disliked the Athenian democratic system because it
>was
> > not democratic ENOUGH.
> >
> > Now, allow me to briefly address your claim that:  2) Athens was not a
> > democracy.
> >
> > It is a bit beside the point, since Pound did not seem to care about
> > Athenian democracy, or about any of its heroes.  Now, I have heard Zaire
> > referred to as a kleptocracy (and the government of Rhodes, because of
>the
> > high consumption of seaweed, was perhaps refered to as a kelp-tocracy);
>But
> > I have never heard the term used to refer to Athens.  How many Greek
>rulers
> > were depositing their excess funds in Persian or Phoenician banks--- a
>la
> > Mobutu Sese Seko?  :
> >
> > I would agree with the proposition:  Athens was far from being a perfect
> > democracy.  But what other state came anywhere close during that period
> > ?(except for Republican Rome, perhaps.  Pound has no interest in the
>Roman
> > Republicans either.  He never mentions, as far as I know, the original
> > Brutus, the Grachii, Cincinnatus, Cicero, Cato, Spartacus, or Marcus
>Brutus
> > the tyrant-slayer)  If one looks at Athens in comparison to all it's
> > historical competitors, I am hard pressed to find a polity which comes
> > closer to the ideals of democracy, in spite of its short-comings (Yes,
> > Pericles can be accused for spending too much on the Acropolis, but some
>of
> > the statues he put up there are "worth more than any metaphysical
> > argument").
> >
> > Grecophiliac greetings,
> >
> > Wei
> >
> > PS.  You said,
> >
> > <<It was part cartel, part
> > Lion's Club.  . . .That's why our Found[l]ing Fathers, out
> > of admiration, erected so many buildings with big, white pillars. Any
> > 'leftist' who trucked all the way here to Washington, which I
> > affectionately refer to as Satan's Anus, to protest IMF and World Bank
> > policies, should be able to make this connection as a matter of
>reflex.>>
> >
> > <<Further, he should realize that there are no 'democratic' Half
>Measures
> > tolerated inside this money/power nexus.>>
> >
> > More or less true, I think
> >
> > <<Have you read Edward Bernays
> > 1928 classic, Propaganda, on the method and manner of authoritarian
> > control in the so-called democracies?>>
> >
> > No.  Sounds good to me.  I look and see if a copy is available in my
>area.
> >
> > <<And Bernays is no Chomsky. He
> > worked for the other side.>>
> >
> > All the more interesting.
> >
> > <<One of his most famous achievements was to
> > supply PR cover for the brutal overthrow of the Arbenz government by the
> > CIA and Dept. of State in Guatemala in 1954. CP>>
> >
> > Pretty horrific.  I'd like to know more about Bernays (do you recall if
>he
> > mentioned in "Bitter Fruit"?)
> > ________________________________________________________________________
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