"C.Parcelli" <[log in to unmask]> wrote

<<Subject: Re: What is particularly bad or undemocratic in this?

Perhaps, Pound did not support the notion of Athenian democracy because
it was in actuality anything but democratic. >>

We know precisely why Pound opposed Greek democracy.  He stated the reason
in the Guide to Kulchur.  Pound prefers the Roman Empire and Confucian
totalitarianism to the "loose talk of argumentative greeks."

"Rome was the responsible ruler . . .  The sense of responsibility , the
need for cooordination of individuals expressed in Kung's teacing differs
radically both from early Christain absolutism and from the maritime
adventure morals of Odysseus or the loose talk of argumentative greeks . .
."  (GK, 38).

Aristotle's Politics speaks quite favorably of democracy.  Pound however,
says "As a working hyupothesis say that Kung is superior to Aristotle by
totalitarian instinct . . ." (GK, 279)

Another problem would be "the love of wisdom or the responsibility of that
carries wisdom into details in action is not a Greek glory but a Roman."
(GK, 40)  So much for the Plutarch's lives, so much for Solon, Lycurgus,
Themistocles, Pericles, Alcibiades, Demosthenes, and even Alexander (a
person we might expect Pound to admire).   I don't think Pound mentions any
of these historical figures in favorable light (or in any light for that
matter, except for Alexander).  Let me know if you can find any references
to Greek democrats.  Of course, in the guide to Kulchur we have the quote:

"Battle of Cheronea.  END of liberty.  Achaia a Roman province.
Headline or whatever, B.C. 146  "

refering to the demise of Europe's first democratic civilization.  Doesn't
seem to trouble him too much, this "end of liberty", but this is
understandable in light of great praise of Mussolini scattered throughout
the Guide to Kulchur, and in light of his praise of Confucian
totalitarianism.  For example, in this passage he praises Mussolini for the
victories of fascism and BLAMES ARISTOTLE for fascism's imperfection.

"I wd. go even further and state in parenthesis, with the date Ap 16 anno
XV, that the things still needing to be remedied in the Italian state are
due to an Aristotelic residuum left in Mussolini's own mind.  Despite all he
has sloughed off in evolving his totalitarian formulae."  (GK, 309).

I think you will agree that there is nothing in any of these statements to
indicate that Pound disliked the Athenian democratic system because it was
not democratic ENOUGH.

Now, allow me to briefly address your claim that:  2) Athens was not a
democracy.

It is a bit beside the point, since Pound did not seem to care about
Athenian democracy, or about any of its heroes.  Now, I have heard Zaire
referred to as a kleptocracy (and the government of Rhodes, because of the
high consumption of seaweed, was perhaps refered to as a kelp-tocracy); But
I have never heard the term used to refer to Athens.  How many Greek rulers
were depositing their excess funds in Persian or Phoenician banks--- a la
Mobutu Sese Seko?  :

I would agree with the proposition:  Athens was far from being a perfect
democracy.  But what other state came anywhere close during that period
?(except for Republican Rome, perhaps.  Pound has no interest in the Roman
Republicans either.  He never mentions, as far as I know, the original
Brutus, the Grachii, Cincinnatus, Cicero, Cato, Spartacus, or Marcus Brutus
the tyrant-slayer)  If one looks at Athens in comparison to all it's
historical competitors, I am hard pressed to find a polity which comes
closer to the ideals of democracy, in spite of its short-comings (Yes,
Pericles can be accused for spending too much on the Acropolis, but some of
the statues he put up there are "worth more than any metaphysical
argument").

Grecophiliac greetings,

Wei






PS.  You said,

<<It was part cartel, part
Lion's Club.  . . .That's why our Found[l]ing Fathers, out
of admiration, erected so many buildings with big, white pillars. Any
'leftist' who trucked all the way here to Washington, which I
affectionately refer to as Satan's Anus, to protest IMF and World Bank
policies, should be able to make this connection as a matter of reflex.>>

<<Further, he should realize that there are no 'democratic' Half Measures
tolerated inside this money/power nexus.>>

More or less true, I think

<<Have you read Edward Bernays
1928 classic, Propaganda, on the method and manner of authoritarian
control in the so-called democracies?>>

No.  Sounds good to me.  I look and see if a copy is available in my area.

<<And Bernays is no Chomsky. He
worked for the other side.>>

All the more interesting.

<<One of his most famous achievements was to
supply PR cover for the brutal overthrow of the Arbenz government by the
CIA and Dept. of State in Guatemala in 1954. CP>>

Pretty horrific.  I'd like to know more about Bernays (do you recall if he
mentioned in "Bitter Fruit"?)
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